Vancian Spellcasting's Real Problem - CoDzilla

[Hassassin]

The problem for many of us is that the in-game reasoning breaks immersion--it clashes with most other fantasy wizard tropes I hold, for instance.

Not to worry. We are very likely almost certain to see non-vancian spellcasters as well.

But those who do find it immersion-breaking: which magic system doesn't break immersion for you?

 

[Minigiant]

[MENTION=3424]FireLance[/MENTION] & [MENTION=1122]Frostmarrow[/MENTION]

I understand why the designers buffed the "healer" classes. But how could they think almost boundless wildshap or a whole lot of personal buffs was a good idea. I broke my first 3E druid by accident (it only snuck up on me because we rolled stats and I only got 3 nonnegatives. Fortunately the campaign was ending before my domination turned annoying.

In many games, the designers add a lot of "cool" ideas without thinking of the consequences of doing so. I don't know if it is not enough playtesting. Sometimes it feels like someone just writes down an idea without even looking at the rest of the game. The 3X fighter seems like they designed it early and never looked back at it while they designer the rest of the game. If a spells limitation is duration, why make easy duration extenders? Remove a major drawback with one feat? No problem.

 

[hanez]

I think Druids could have been balanced with some simple design tweaks in 3.5.

Natural spellcasting was a huuuge problem that shouldnt have been made.

Shapeshifting should be from a more restricted set of monsters as in Pathfinder

And some spells should be refined. I didn't see Druids being a problem as much as "some Druid builds" being the problem. This can be addressed.

I also see the martial classes as being the problem. They need to be given MORE. Martial classes should get better magical items IMO.

 

[Frostmarrow]

[MENTION=3424]FireLance[/MENTION] & [MENTION=1122]Frostmarrow[/MENTION]

I understand why the designers buffed the "healer" classes. But how could they think almost boundless wildshap or a whole lot of personal buffs was a good idea. I broke my first 3E druid by accident (it only snuck up on me because we rolled stats and I only got 3 nonnegatives. Fortunately the campaign was ending before my domination turned annoying.

In many games, the designers add a lot of "cool" ideas without thinking of the consequences of doing so. I don't know if it is not enough playtesting. Sometimes it feels like someone just writes down an idea without even looking at the rest of the game. The 3X fighter seems like they designed it early and never looked back at it while they designer the rest of the game. If a spells limitation is duration, why make easy duration extenders? Remove a major drawback with one feat? No problem.

I'm baffled clerics get access to all spells. Even spells not published yet. Like you I can't understand how they could miss that wide open loophole. Must have been tradition or something.
(Another thing that was dumbfounding was the introduction of mercurial swords in Sword and Fist. Just add mercury and any weapon jumps up a dice notch in the damage department.)

 

[hanez]

I'm baffled clerics get access to all spells. Even spells not published yet. Like you I can't understand how they could miss that wide open loophole. Must have been tradition or something.
(Another thing that was dumbfounding was the introduction of mercurial swords in Sword and Fist. Just add mercury and any weapon jumps up a dice notch in the damage department.)

Im playing a 2e game and I still cant understand the descisions made. The druid and clerics attack bonus, hit points and access to spell as compared to fighters/wizards is just silly. This def needs to be fixed in 5e

 

[Yora]

Not to worry. We are very likely almost certain to see non-vancian spellcasters as well.

But those who do find it immersion-breaking: which magic system doesn't break immersion for you?

Everything else! ^^

No, really. I can live with the fact that fictional settings have objectively observable supernatural abilities. But I expect such abilities to work in a way similar to natural abilities I am used to. Exhaustion is something I understand. If you cast too many spells, you need to replenish your energies, which may include taking a nap. I can also understand a short breather, that requires people to have a short time passing by before they can perform an exhausting action again. Mana points and cooldown are things that are similar to natural abilities I know from the real world, so they seem familiar and I understand how they are supposed to work.

But there is no mechanism in nature or technology of which I am aware, in which an ability can not be used even thoug the mechanism that creates it, and the fuel that powers it, are still present. If I have the ability to run, jump, and swim and after having made some jumps still have the energy to run or swim, then I also have the ability to jump some more.

I think the concept of vancian casting is that you meditate to form a kind of ball of mana that will cause an effect when it pops, and it is stored in your brain. Since space in your brain is limited, it can hold only so many balls of mana, and since forming these balls takes a long time you can't just do it on the fly. It makes sense. But does not have any analog in nature or technology.

 

[Janaxstrus]

The problem with clerics and druids is they went too far in trying to make up for the healing being "boring" fix.

As mentioned in the thread about the Cleric/Priest divide, I would rather see a cleric become the lightly armored spell caster, who heals and has the nifty attack spells, while the Paladin gets the buffs to become a fighting machine.

I think if you remove things like Divine Power and Righteous Might from their list, absolutely KILL the divine metamagic cheese and tone their armor choices down, they start to fall in line.
Clerics should be good spell casters and good backup fighters, but they shouldn't be better than a wizard at slinging damaging spells, better than a bard at buffing and better than the fighter at swinging steel.

Druids schtick should be the wildshaping, with minor spell casting, mostly self-buffs, weather related effects and healing. Kill the Bite Of spells (insanely overpowered) and knock them down to more like the bard in terms of spell casting and they start to come in line too.

Either way, vancian magic isn't to blame for these issues, it purely an overreaction on the designers part. LUCKILY, I play with a mature group and we never really encounter the horror stories related to CODZILLA and such.

 

[erleni]

Everything else! ^^

No, really. I can live with the fact that fictional settings have objectively observable supernatural abilities. But I expect such abilities to work in a way similar to natural abilities I am used to. Exhaustion is something I understand. If you cast too many spells, you need to replenish your energies, which may include taking a nap. I can also understand a short breather, that requires people to have a short time passing by before they can perform an exhausting action again. Mana points and cooldown are things that are similar to natural abilities I know from the real world, so they seem familiar and I understand how they are supposed to work.

But there is no mechanism in nature or technology of which I am aware, in which an ability can not be used even thoug the mechanism that creates it, and the fuel that powers it, are still present. If I have the ability to run, jump, and swim and after having made some jumps still have the energy to run or swim, then I also have the ability to jump some more.

I think the concept of vancian casting is that you meditate to form a kind of ball of mana that will cause an effect when it pops, and it is stored in your brain. Since space in your brain is limited, it can hold only so many balls of mana, and since forming these balls takes a long time you can't just do it on the fly. It makes sense. But does not have any analog in nature or technology.

Actually egg-laying is similar and also pyrotechnical shows are close to what a vancian mage does (you prepare a given number of "rockets" and then you can use them during the show).

 

[FireLance]

I think the concept of vancian casting is that you meditate to form a kind of ball of mana that will cause an effect when it pops, and it is stored in your brain. Since space in your brain is limited, it can hold only so many balls of mana, and since forming these balls takes a long time you can't just do it on the fly. It makes sense. But does not have any analog in nature or technology.

It helps if you think of the spell as something external to you, like a sandwich. In the morning, I make a sandwich. Some time in the course of the day, I eat the sandwich. After that, I can go through the motions of chewing and swallowing, but it isn't the same since I no longer have a sandwich.

 

[Hassassin]

No, really. I can live with the fact that fictional settings have objectively observable supernatural abilities. But I expect such abilities to work in a way similar to natural abilities I am used to. Exhaustion is something I understand. If you cast too many spells, you need to replenish your energies, which may include taking a nap. I can also understand a short breather, that requires people to have a short time passing by before they can perform an exhausting action again. Mana points and cooldown are things that are similar to natural abilities I know from the real world, so they seem familiar and I understand how they are supposed to work.

Could you point to a specific example system in an RPG? For example, if you take 3e psionics and call them magic, would that work?

But there is no mechanism in nature or technology of which I am aware, in which an ability can not be used even thoug the mechanism that creates it, and the fuel that powers it, are still present.

Think about a soldier who goes into battle with a clip of tracers, one of armor piercing rounds and three of normal ammo. After he's used up the tracers, he can no longer direct fire as well, but still has the other types of ammunition.

That's pretty much how the Vancian wizard works.