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Vancian? Why can't we let it go?

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
If you can do it without trampling all over the rogue or bard (or make it an exclusive feature of a class designed to replace a rogue or a bard) that's great.


In the class-free system I am OGLing there are three paths, Mental, Physical, and Spiritual, that get chosen at each leveling, so a "rogue/thief" would be built using any combination of those depending on the style of "rogue/thief" the player was creating. As such, one might take a Physical Path level to gain some Facets in hand-to-hand combat but also take a bit of Mental Path to gain some arcane access and deeper knowledge, perhaps of magical locks and whatnot. The player creates a background first, then uses that to guide how they build the character going forward. Furthering the character during advancement is based both on background and on what happens in-game (on-screen and off-screen). I'm not sure D&D 5E could embrace a class-free approach to design but it does avoid the preconceptions that certain classes are the only ones who can perform particular activities and thereby avoids certain classes from potentially stepping on one another's toes.
 
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kinem

Adventurer
1. Is it easy to teach (if you can't teach a game, it won't grow, and if it doesn't grow 5e will be the last edition we play under the hasbro name)

Check; it's an extremely simple system. Cast it and it's gone for the day.

Call me what you will, but I wouldn't want to play a game like D&D with anyone who has trouble grasping that concept.

2. It limits the option of the game
For some reason unknown to anyone, a powerful wizard can still cast 4 3rd level huge fireballs from the sky, but can't muster a simple scorching ray.

The reason why you can't swap on the fly is known to everyone: wizard spells need to be prepared in advance. Casting a spell is just unleashing it; the real work is in preparing it.

3. It creates the 1 hour study guy, 15 minute adventurer
I"m all for a study period and having prepared spells and spells in waiting. But once their over its over. What if it was a tough day. Why is there no way for me to just study again. Same argument as above, Wait i didnt remember a powerful fireball spell, so i can memorize that, but i can't memorize another scorching ray.

There's nothing stopping you from using 3rd level slots to prepare 2nd level spells. It's just rarely done due to the power lost.

I do prefer 3e's "spell preparation" flavor over previous editions' use of "spell memorization". "Forgetting" spells never made too much sense; luckily it never made an appearance in 3.X. Instead you use up prepared spells. People still make the mistake of calling spell preparation "memorization" though.

I actually agree that you shouldn't always have to wait a full day to prepare new spells, but there has to be some limit on it.

I also agree with those who have suggested that low-level at-will abilities should be added. Perhaps spells of less than half the level of your highest level spell should not be used up when cast. You'd still pick which ones to prepare, as with Pathfinder's cantrips. Spells would have to be balanced for this though. Certain powerful spells could be exceptions and still get used up when cast, such as the cure spells.

4. The Wizard, the bookkeeper
You have up to 9 extra resources to keep track of depending on your level and these fluctuate every morning.

High level spellcasters - especially wizards - do get too complicated at times, but that's why the wizard shouldn't be the only option for a magic user.

Another simplification might be to make spells more flexible somehow. Maybe if you prepare a fire spell, you should be allowed to choose on the fly whether to make it single target or area of effect, for example. That way you don't need to worry as much about picking the right spells.
 
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Crazy Jerome

First Post
It's possible that you could get away with, as an optional system, something modeled on Roger Zelazny's Amber series, especially the second series (with Merlin). His version of "hanging" spells, with only a few key words and gestures left unsaid to control the parameters needed at release, is very close to Vancian magic in some respects.

It would have to be optional because the act of hanging is more complicated than spell prep/memorization, because the caster is ritually prepping not a standard spell, but one designed on the spot. For example, you don't prep "fireball". You prep one of a nearly infinite varieties of spells that summon some chunk of energy and release it in an area. But once you hang it, you are pretty much stuck with it, perhaps having some minor control over the size and range of the blast.

Whatever its flaws, such a method certainly reinforces in the players' minds why the hung spell is expended once cast--it was terribly powerful and difficult to wrestle into shape in the first place. You don't hang onto a piece of it once unleashed anymore than you'd drop a 30 foot log off a cliff face and hang onto the attached rope. Well, not more than once anyway. :p
 

Therise

First Post
I like things that work. I think we all do.

So, what I"m interested in, is not arguments of (well it's always been there, so lets keep it) but why it works better than another option. I can't think of one. I've read other threads, the number 1 answer

In my old gruffy man voice
"It's always been there, since i was a kid, i struggled to learn Vancian and so did my forefather and it is not dungeons and dragons without it, especially if you are walking up hill in school in 5 feet of snow".
I suppose I'm one of those old grognards, as I was there from the beginning with Chainmail and AD&D, all of it...

But I have disliked Vancian magic from the beginning. I don't think it matches well with the literary impression we have of wizards and enchantresses, other than the Jack Vance novels.

We stopped playing when 2E D&D came out, switching over to Rolemaster. It may have its own flaws and complexities, but it felt SO good to be away from the "one shot and totally forget" spells that we loved it.

So I was -glad- that 4E took the step of tossing it out. I didn't quite like the reduction in versatility (magic missile over and over again, and not having the ability to pick up another wizard's tomes and scrolls and make them part of your options). Cutting me off from learning new spells won in treasure wasn't good. To me, wizards adventure because they want to find old magic books and incorporate them into their repertoire.

I sincerely hope that 5E steers far clear of Vancian magic but can get a little bit back to making those old tomes and scrolls something a wizard can look forward to.
 

Celebrim

Legend
So I was -glad- that 4E took the step of tossing it out. I didn't quite like the reduction in versatility (magic missile over and over again, and not having the ability to pick up another wizard's tomes and scrolls and make them part of your options). Cutting me off from learning new spells won in treasure wasn't good. To me, wizards adventure because they want to find old magic books and incorporate them into their repertoire.

I sincerely hope that 5E steers far clear of Vancian magic but can get a little bit back to making those old tomes and scrolls something a wizard can look forward to.

You can't get something for nothing. 'Vancian' is the name used for the limitation on magical power adopted by D&D because of its passing resemblence to magic as practiced in the stories of Jack Vance. It is not a simulationist approach to magic at all, which is where I think the disconnect people have with it comes from. Oddly, it is often the least simulationist D&D players that howl the most about how Vancian magic doesn't work like in the stories. Of course, this itself is an odd claim because in most fantasy how magic works is not something that is greatly elaborated on. While there is no reason to suspect that Tolkien magic is Vancian in nature, we are given so little of how it actually works that it might as well be Vancian.

The basic structure of D&D magic is that it is extraordinarily powerful and capable of working miracles of every sort, BUT with this great power comes great limitations. You have to prepare it ahead of time. You have to know spells which are generally inflexible and specific in their application. The spells take time to cast and are difficult to cast in combat. The spells can be disrupted and when disrupted they are dangerous to their casters. D&D magic is not anime or video game magic where Wizards go around spamming out blasts of energy like juiced up soldiers with high tech energy weapons. It is arcane.

The advantage of this approach is that D&D spell casters do not have to be limited that much in their power, because they are so limited in their application. If you remove the restrictions and give them more flexibility, you have only two choices. Either you must make a game where everyone is a superpowered spellcasters, or else you must drastically reduce the power and flexibility of magic in others. You can't have it both ways.

I've played games where magic is accessible but relatively weak, and I've played the D&D way and I prefer the D&D way. For one thing it feels more like the magic of pre-RPG pre-video game fiction than not. I likewise prefer that the arcane not dominate over the mundane because it feels more like the magic of pre-RPG pre-video game fiction where the hero/protagonist was usually not the spell-caster.

If you get down to the mechanics, 'Vancian' magic is basically nothing more than powers on a cool down cycle. To me, it's still Vancian magic if you can use the powers 1/encounter or 1/round or 1/game session or 1/x number of seconds as in World or Warcraft or whatever. However, the shorter the cool down cycle, the weaker you have to make the powers to keep it balanced and interesting. Video games use very short cool down cycles because in a video game you aren't continually interacting with another real person in a social manner. As such, you need the short cool down cycle to give the game adequate interactivity. But video games don't in the slightest reflect the way magic is used in pre-video game fiction. If you emulate the short cool down cycles of video games, don't be surprised if for reasons that they have trouble explaining, the newer game feels video-gamey or like anime to the player. That's great if that's what you are trying to emulate, but chances are it isn't.

I deny that Vancian magic as presented in D&D does a bad job of emulating classic fantasy fiction. As someone pointed out, the magic in the Amber series is easily adapted as Vancian. To perfectly emulate it, all we'd need is some sort of well done 'spell seed' system. The magic in Raymond Feist is post RPG magic inspired by D&D, and indeed inspired by a D&D campaign. And even in stories where the magic is not explained or explained in non-Vancian there is a general rule in fiction that for whatever reason the spellcasters only uses the magic rarely rather than all the time, and in all the RPGs I've played only D&D succeeds in emulating that trope (even if it is doing so for very different mechanical reasons) while still allowing the player to play as a mighty 'wizard'. I don't know what stories you are talking about that don't feel like Vancian magic. In every one of them you have to ask, "Why aren't they doing this all the time?" The answer is no better given by 'mana points' - which certainly don't show up in most fantasy fiction either - than it is by Vancian magic.

If you want flexibility, you have to have either very very weak magic or very very restricted magic. That's the choice.
 

Glade Riven

Adventurer
Is it bad that I think 5e should have an option for Either/Or/Both? Then people can play what they want to play. So long as different casting styles are balanced in actual play, I see no problem with both Vancian and non-vancian magic at the table.


Then again, this is one reason (of several commonly sited) why a lot of people hate 3.5 psionics. The oddest things we get hung up over...

In the class-free system I am OGLing there are three paths, Mental, Physical, and Spiritual, that get chosen at each leveling...

I'm seeing some Skyrim love in the house.
 

A few things, here:

1. It isn't perfect, and choice is too broad, especially for 3e Druids, Clerics, etc (who have unlimited spell lists-I miss the old "spheres", and would prefer clerics get an "all" school and a number of domains).

2. Most people unintentionally skip the hard parts of spellcasting. I'm not just talking about the pain in the butt parts (like specific spell components). I'm talking about the costs of spells for wizards, which, if enforced, takes a LOT of their monetary assests away. Also, an hour per day of memorizing leaves an hour for other players to do productive things (which I rarely see them do).

3. Depending on edition, spell memorization times were significant (as in AD&D, IIRC, a certain number of minutes per spell, increasing with spell level) and flexible (you could leave a slot "open" and spend time later memorizing something for the situation).

4. Not being able to wear armor was a far greater sacrifice in earlier editions of D&D. It is not nearly as noticeable in 3e or 4e as in prior.

5. The ability to cast all day long, was, IMO nicely solved in 3.5 with "reserve feats" which allowed for unlimited casting of lower power level spell like abilities so long as the caster reserved a spell of that type (e.g. an at will fire arrow that did 1d6 per level of the reserved spell).

6. I'd be okay with removing access to lower level spells as a caster levels up (if only to have less to look at when their turn comes up), but perhaps with the option to always trade down (e.g. I don't lose the ability to cast magic missile when I get lvl 2 spells...but I might be less likely to cast it in place of a level 2 spell).
 

Lord Zack

Explorer
I think that there should be both Vancian and non-Vancian magic classes in the game (the Wizard might be Vancian, while the Sorcerer should be non-Vancian). Furthermore, there should be guidelines for adjusting a spellcasting class to use another system.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I think that there should be both Vancian and non-Vancian magic classes in the game (the Wizard might be Vancian, while the Sorcerer should be non-Vancian).

The sorcerer is also Vancian - it just plays around with the restriction on when you choose your spells.

The psion is D&D's premiere non-Vancian spellcasting class. If you were to remove it's entirely unnecessary 'psionic' associations, it would make a perfectly fine Wizard should you want a game world without Vancian spellcaster.

My personal feeling is that for those that puke in their mouth at the notion of Vancian magic, a detailed chapter in the Psionic expansion detailing how 'psychic' is just another word for 'magic' and how to refluff the material covered to a more arcane standard of robes, wands, potions and dusty tomes should cover the need just fine.

Actually, I take that back. Make the flexible point based spellcaster based on the psion, but make the fluff of robes, wands, potions, and dusty tomes be the standard and put a chapter in the book for redressing the 'magus' or whatever as a psionic spellcaster rather than arcane. Psionic doesn't sell well as flavor, and honestly if the psion was a variant wizard I'd be a lot easier to convince to allow it in my game.
 

Lord Zack

Explorer
The sorcerer is also Vancian - it just plays around with the restriction on when you choose your spells.

The psion is D&D's premiere non-Vancian spellcasting class. If you were to remove it's entirely unnecessary 'psionic' associations, it would make a perfectly fine Wizard should you want a game world without Vancian spellcaster.

My personal feeling is that for those that puke in their mouth at the notion of Vancian magic, a detailed chapter in the Psionic expansion detailing how 'psychic' is just another word for 'magic' and how to refluff the material covered to a more arcane standard of robes, wands, potions and dusty tomes should cover the need just fine.

Actually, I take that back. Make the flexible point based spellcaster based on the psion, but make the fluff of robes, wands, potions, and dusty tomes be the standard and put a chapter in the book for redressing the 'magus' or whatever as a psionic spellcaster rather than arcane. Psionic doesn't sell well as flavor, and honestly if the psion was a variant wizard I'd be a lot easier to convince to allow it in my game.

Notice I was talking speculatively about the future, not about what already was. Thus I used phrases like "should be".
 

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