D&D 5E Variant Ability scores and mods in 5e: B/X or AD&D 2e

[Tales and Chronicles]

So, quick question:

I never played much with the earlier editions (BG videogames, some OSR games), but I quite like the lower modifiers granted by the ability scores. I think I'll use them in 5e.

So, for those of you with experience with those systems: which one do you prefer?

I personally like the % scores that comes with some stats in 2e ed, but not having a +to hit until 17 STR and such seems kinda painful while in combat.

Or maybe a mix of both?

 

[DND_Reborn]

I find ability scores are relied on too heavily with bonuses so easy to get. As such, I prefer B/X, which is slightly harder than 5E, but not to the point of AD&D. In AD&D, you needed a 15 to have just about any chance for a bonus or significant increase in the %'s.

Also, a think about 5E that bugs me is Ogres are STR 19 (hence why Gauntlets of Ogre Power give you STR 19), but STR 18 is also a +4 bonus, so the distinction is nearly meaningless.

We've been using a B/X modified 5E for ability modifiers:

From 3 - 18 it is B/X, otherwise it is 5E. This gives STR 18 and 19 a meaningful difference, however slight, and decreases over all bonuses a bit.

However, lately we've been questioning whether so minor a change is really worth having.

 

[Jack Daniel]

When I do still have occasion to play AD&D, I run stats almost by-the-book (and I make characters roll 3d6 in order, the default method in 2nd edition, so significant modifiers are rare); the only significant change that I make is eliminating percentile Strength, and instead just giving fighter-types extra hit and damage bonuses to compensate. But I don't particularly like the way AD&D does stats; I just leave most of the system alone because there's too much there to bother tinkering with.

Your Classic D&D (1981–1996) has uniform modifiers that run from −3 to +3. In other words, it's just like the d20 system, except that the range of modifiers is only one less. Switching from the d20 System table that runs from −4 to +4 isn't going to change much about the way the game works; it'll just make characters a bit weaker.

(This is also true of another common alternative that I use frequently, and which is default in a handful of OSR games: cutting the d20 modifiers in half and dropping fractions. Then you get 3 = −2 ; 4–7 = −1 ; 8–13 = ±0 ; 14–17 = +1 ; 18 = +2. It reins in the "modifier creep" by keeping numbers on the low side, but it doesn't actually change how the stats work and what they're for, or the way players perceive them and DMs use them.)

Right at the moment, I'm using a method that's a bit inspired by Original D&D and Holmes Basic, a bit by Swords & Wizardry (where the modifier table is simply 3–8 = −1 ; 9–12 = ±0 ; 13–18 = +1), and bit by White Box: Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game (similar to S&W, except that penalties kick in at 3–6 and bonuses at 15–18). I like how these games have the stats affect a very few specific things, and with only very small modifiers. So I gave each stat a "tiered" structure, e.g.:

Dexterity 3–5: −1 to missile fire and AC.
Dexterity 6–8: −1 to missile fire; no AC adjustment.
Dexterity 9–12: No adjustments.
Dexterity 13–15: +1 to missile fire; no AC adjustment.
Dexterity 16–18: +1 to missile fire and AC.

Constitution 3–5: 4-in-6 chance to survive system shock; −10% to total hit points.
Constitution 6–8: 4-in-6 chance to survive system shock; no hp adjustment.
Constitution 9–12: 5-in-6 chance to survive system shock; no hp adjustment.
Constitution 13–15: 100% chance to survive system shock; no hp adjustment.
Constitution 16–18: 100% chance to survive system shock; +10% to total hit points.

And so forth; you get the idea. It has the OD&D and AD&D "there is no single uniform modifier, instead each stat affects things in a bespoke way that makes sense" (so you don't get nonsense like a −4 Con mod that can eat up even a fighter's hit die roll). But the added complexity is mitigated by the fact that the modifiers are always small and manageable — and it has the added outcome (feature, not bug IMO) of making characters broadly more similar to each other than they are different, with less impact from the stats and less reliance on them for mechanics. (This is a very good thing if you're playing OD&D, but it may not be desirable at all if you're running 5e, where the stats were very deliberately designed from the ground up to carry a great deal of the game's mechanical "weight"!)

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I’ve enjoyed the aspect of older editions where much of a character’s abilities were filmed in from magic. It really incentivized characters to go into ruins and find magic.

The steep ability creep into plus abundant advantage opportunities plus spells that boost nearly everything makes magic item rewards bend the bounded accuracy too hard. If your game is going to offer abundant magic items to fill that gap of diminished bonuses, that might work well.

Currently, in my campaign every magic item I’m giving out that is a +1/+2/+3… bonus to attack, ability, or AC, I’m eliminating the bonus and swapping in another magic feature.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Currently, in my campaign every magic item I’m giving out that is a +1/+2/+3… bonus to attack, ability, or AC, I’m eliminating the bonus and swapping in another magic feature.

We do this as well. No item has a generic +X bonus, but has other magical properties.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Yeah I'm planning of being very generous with magic items and allow to increase 2 stats by +1 at ASI levels, with a cap of 18 (maybe with ancestry adjustment of +1/-1 to the stat cap, no bonus at chargen).

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Here's a test:

Strength

Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force.

Strength Modifiers
STR __________Melee/Thrown to hit_________Melee damage bonus
3 ________________ –3 ___________________________-5
4–5_______________ –2 ___________________________-2
6–8_______________ –1 ____________________________-1
9–12_____________ None_________________________+1
13–15_______________+1_________________________ +1
16–17_______________ +1_______________+2
18_______________ +2 _______________+3
19_______________+3_______________+5
20* _______________ +4_______________+5
*+1 to hit in melee or thrown weapon for every 2 STR points beyond 20.
*+1 to melee damage for every STR point beyond 20.

Strength Skills Proficiencies:

Athletics. Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming..

Feat of Strength. Your Strength (Feat of Strength) indicates the character's aptitude to force open a heavy or stuck door, to bend normal iron bars, lift a vertical gate), or perform a similar feat of enormous strength.


Other uses:

Attack Rolls and Damage. You add your Strength modifier to your attack roll and your damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon such as a mace, a battleaxe, or a javelin. You use melee weapons to make melee attacks in hand-to-hand combat, and some of them can be thrown to make a ranged attack. Specially crafted bows can also add your Strength bonus to their damage roll.

Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don't usually have to worry about it. If you carry weight in excess of half your carrying capacity, you are encumbered, which means your speed drops by 10 feet.

If you carry weight over your maximum carrying capacity, you are instead heavily encumbered, which means your speed drops by 20 feet and you have disadvantage on ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws that use Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution.

Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet. Trying to exceed these weight limits might require a Strength (Feat of Strength) against a DC decided by the DM.

• Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature's carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Small creature, halve these weights. These weights are a quarter of their value for Tiny creatures.

Equipment Proficiency. Armors and weapons have a minimum Strength requirement for you to be able to use them without constraints.

 

[Voadam]

I grew to really dislike the reverse bell curve of AD&D stats. No significant modifier for the big middle, but lots at the very extremes so absolutely maxxing out stats is incentivized and the difference in very good versus decent stats is significant. I found the difference between playing a 17 strength fighter next to an 18 (XX) fighter particularly galling.

By the end of my AD&D era I grew to intellectually like B/X where stats do not make a big difference and 3d6 in order is fine.

3e-5e stat mods I also like, there are incentives for maxxing out build array priorities, but playing a 15 versus 25 point buy game does not seem like it would have the impact it would in AD&D. I was generally fine starting with 14s in a 3e low point buy game. I tend to like 5e's bounded accuracy and almost no stat prerequisite setup more than the skyrocketing numbers of 3e-4e and the numerous stat requirements of 3e (spell level caps and feats come to mind).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

So, quick question:

I never played much with the earlier editions (BG videogames, some OSR games), but I quite like the lower modifiers granted by the ability scores. I think I'll use them in 5e.

So, for those of you with experience with those systems: which one do you prefer?

I personally like the % scores that comes with some stats in 2e ed, but not having a +to hit until 17 STR and such seems kinda painful while in combat.

Or maybe a mix of both?

First, the primary problem/advantage of 5e (depending on what you like) isn't the abilities- it's the ASIs. The fundamental distinction between the OD&D / AD&D / BECMI games and 5e isn't just the modifiers - it's that in the older games, your abilities were relatively static. Sure, you could get some items to increase them (Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, etc.), but you didn't have the ASI treadmill you have in 5e.

Which was fine, because almost everything you did increased not because of your abilities, but due to your level-saves and attacks being the primary examples.

...which is a long way of getting to the main point. I love the AD&D system myself, but it also contemplates certain other structural changes that aren't in 5e.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

First, the primary problem/advantage of 5e (depending on what you like) isn't the abilities- it's the ASIs. The fundamental distinction between the OD&D / AD&D / BECMI games and 5e isn't just the modifiers - it's that in the older games, your abilities were relatively static. Sure, you could get some items to increase them (Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, etc.), but you didn't have the ASI treadmill you have in 5e.

Which was fine, because almost everything you did increased not because of your abilities, but due to your level-saves and attacks being the primary examples.

...which is a long way of getting to the main point. I love the AD&D system myself, but it also contemplates certain other structural changes that aren't in 5e.

Good point. This is a starting point, but at least I think it will have some advantages:

• Make proficiency bonus more important than the ability mod.
• Try (and probably not succeed, but still) to make Score kinda important.
• Make monsters tougher when compared to PC (I'll probably halve the monster's HP though).
• Make stat increases more rewarding instead of being automatic (no 20s at level 8, frex). Creatures/Character with exceptional stats will be something impressive, not expected.
• Make Advantage an important bonus instead of being just ''cool but not necessary''.

With bounded accuracy and proficiency bonus, I think character will still be somewhat powerful while making ''power ups'' more related to the actual adventuring rather than planed on the character sheet.

I intend to make other changes, like eliminating most cantrips (a part for mage hand, thaumaturgy, prestidigitation, minor illusion, eldritch blast for warlock, druidcraft etc) and buffing them to be 1st level spells. Or using Shadow of the Demon Lord's equipment rules where the proficiencies of a character are based on their STR score instead of decided by class (So yeah, a wizard with 15+ STR could potentially wear heavy armors).