Variant for Duelists and other swordsmen

[jdfrenzel]

Remember the duel in The Princess Bride between Wesley and Inigo?
"You're using Bonetti's defense against me, eh?"
"I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain."
"Naturally you must expect I will attack with capo ferro."
"Naturally. But I find that Thibault cancels out capo ferro. Don't you?"
"Not if the enemy has studied his Agrippa. Which I have."

This sort of banter is at least half the fun of playing the swashbuckler, so here's a mechanic to help.

New Skill: Knowledge (Swordplay)

When duelists face each other, they may attempt Knowledge (Swordplay) rolls to gain an advantage. The check represents use of a fencing maneuver or series. When it is one opponents turn to act, he may announce such an attempt. The player sets a target DC, then makes a check against his Knowledge skill, with appropriate modifiers. If successful, he gains a modifier of +2 he can use towards his attack roll, or his AC (as part of his parry defense). However, his opponent may immediately try to counter the maneuver. He makes his own Knowledge check against the same DC. If he succeeds, the bonus is nullified. If he fails, he may try again next round. If not countered, the bonus lasts until the fight ends, or the player decides to try a different (more difficult) maneuver. These benefits cannot be gained against opponents not using a sword of some kind.

Optional: Add the character's Duelist levels to the checks.
Optional: Allow access to anyone with Knowledge (Swordplay)
Optional: Require some ranks of Knowledge (Swordplay) before taking the Duelist class (4 or 5).

This makes combats last a bit longer, of course, but it is usually more fun. It provides an avenue for role-playing during combats, and it provides a place for those smart fighters to use their skill points.


--- John

 

[Ace]

I like it, quite a bit actually consider it borrowed for my swashbuckiling setting

Thanks.

BTW I would make this a class skill for fighters and rogues and a prerequisite for weapon style prestige classes if you have them.

It is a neat new skill idea and one of the rare occasions in which a new skill is a good idea in 3e

Oh and one addendum to the skill, you may wish to allow it to be used with any weapon. There were distinctive styles for many sorts of weapons.

I can kind of imagine two half orcs facing off with maces

Trying to Gruumushes Meteor against me eh. It won't work against Bahgatrus shield.

Yah but Gorbags form counters Bahgatrus shield.

Not on rocky ground pin head. Rolls a crit
CRUNCH

 

[Cheiromancer]

What styles and techniques are named in the Princess Bride? Are there real-world equivalents? A larger sample of such colorful language might be nice; it would add a lot of flavour to the use of Knowledge (swordplay) if different names had to be thrown out by the players.

 

[Shinsetsu]

Adaptation. Improvisation. But your weakness is not your technique.

I like the idea. It's similar to the Iaijutsu stance phase sense motive check, but occurs during combat. Have you considered a cover bonus based on terrain? Can the swordsman use his opponent's technique against him if he sees through it- more than nullifying it, he exploits it?

 

[jdfrenzel]

What styles and techniques are named in the Princess Bride? Are there real-world equivalents?

The only ones mentioned in the movie are those in my original post. I'm by no means an expert on fencing, but capo ferro is a real technique, and Camillo Agrippa did write a famous manual on fencing.

I generally allow the players to come up with names as they go. One guy uses chess terms to good effect, for example. I keep a list of the names (and their associated DC) for reference.

Good point about other weapons, too. Quarterstaff comes to mind, but since the new skill isn't really new (new subskill of Knowledge, really), it would be no problem to call it Knowledge (Staffplay) or whatever.

Have you considered a cover bonus based on terrain? Can the swordsman use his opponent's technique against him if he sees through it- more than nullifying it, he exploits it?

We pay close attention to cover, terrain and other environ differences during the fights. No special rules, just cover, higher ground, and movement reductions for bad footing, etc. Swashbucklers are always jumping about and knocking things over trying to get an advantage, so I generally try to reward such tactics in some minor way.

I like the idea of exploiting a technique. Maybe if the you make the opposed roll (beat the DC) by 10, you "riposte" and not only nullify his bonus, but gain one for yourself. You've taken the initiative away! I think I'll use that bit.

There is some info on Elizabethan-era fencing at http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing.html, and I'm sure many other resources exist.

--- John

 

[evileeyore]

What styles and techniques are named in the Princess Bride? Are there real-world equivalents?

Actually they are all drawn from historical sources. I have a number of friends who are fencers who could answer from where(but unfortunately not I)...

TTFN

 

[Dougal DeKree]

Can the swordsman use his opponent's technique against him if he sees through it- more than nullifying it, he exploits it?

I would say if he beats the other fighter's DC by some amount perhaps he could gain a +1 for every 5 difference in DC between the two?

 

[Geoff Watson]

Sounds interesting.

I think their should be a penalty for failure, otherwise everyone would attempt this every round.
Maybe -1 to attacks or AC, at the opponents choice.

Don't make it a class skill for Rogues.
Don't restrict it to swords (maybe change the name: Knowledge: Combat Styles).

I think it should be a class skill for Fighters and Monks (haven't you seen the movies when they banter about whose Kung Fu is more powerful).

Geoff.

 

[olethros]

Capo fero

Here are some pics from the original book on swordplay by Capo Ferro

Try stealing names from THESE fighting manuals.

relevant dialogue below:

Inigo:
Begin. You are using Bonetti's defense against me, uh?

Dread Pirate Roberts:
I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.

Inigo:
Naturally, you must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro.

Dread Pirate Roberts:
Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels Capo Ferro, don't you?

Inigo:
Unless the enemy hasn't studied his Agrippa, which I have! [pause] You are wonderful!

 

[jdfrenzel]

I would say if he beats the other fighter's DC by some amount perhaps he could gain a +1 for every 5 difference in DC between the two?

That works; we used beat the DC by 10 to gain a plus 2 for yourself last time.

I think their should be a penalty for failure, otherwise everyone would attempt this every round.

Well, I think we want everyone to try every round, since they are likely using some technique or other at all times. On the other hand, there is a penalty for failure built in - your opponent has the advantage.

Don't restrict it to swords (maybe change the name: Knowledge: Combat Styles).

It is restricted to swords because of the very detailed nature of this type of fighting. But as mentioned earlier in thread, other Knowledge subskills are possible (or likely) that duplicate these effects for other weapons.

I think it should be a class skill for Fighters and Monks (haven't you seen the movies when they banter about whose Kung Fu is more powerful).

I'm still sitting on the fence about this part. I'd like to make it a class skill only for pertinent prestige classes, but your suggestion has merit.

Great resource olethros!

--- John