Various questions on grapple

[Kalendraf]

I've been playing 3e/3.5 for quite a while, and grapple comes up somewhat infrequently. Our group got into a discussion last night which makes me wonder if I am handling it exactly right. I'm hoping someone can answer a few quick things for me:

1) When a monster has improved grab (for example - ochre jelly), it typically includes text similar to this:

Constrict (Ex): An ochre jelly deals automatic slam and acid damage with a successful grapple check.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an ochre jelly must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

It appears that in the same round, the ochre jelly can...
A) Make an attack dealing slam+acid damage.
B) If that is successful, attempt a grapple to gain a hold for constrict
C) If that is successful, deal slam+acid damage again.

It's C that I'm not sure about. Does the grapple check to establish the hold count as a successful grapple check triggering the constrict damage? Or is the constrict something that only happens on the future grapple checks in subsequent rounds?

2) Once a monster like this is constricting, can it attack other characters with it's slam attack? In other words, does the slam attack get tied up in process of constricting, or does it get freed up to attack others?

3) If it can attack others, is it able to constrict more characters?

4) While the monster is constricticting a character, suppose an area affect spell hits them both (fireball, flamestrike, etc). Is there any penalty to the character or monster's reflex saves or related reflex abilities such as evasion or improved evasion?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I've been playing 3e/3.5 for quite a while, and grapple comes up somewhat infrequently. Our group got into a discussion last night which makes me wonder if I am handling it exactly right. I'm hoping someone can answer a few quick things for me:

Glad to help! D&D's roots as a sword and sorcery game is readily apparent whenever you start dealing with unarmed combat.

It appears that in the same round, the ochre jelly can...
A) Make an attack dealing slam+acid damage.
B) If that is successful, attempt a grapple to gain a hold for constrict
C) If that is successful, deal slam+acid damage again.

It's C that I'm not sure about. Does the grapple check to establish the hold count as a successful grapple check triggering the constrict damage? Or is the constrict something that only happens on the future grapple checks in subsequent rounds?

C is correct. Oozes are pretty heinous, if you let them touch you.

2) Once a monster like this is constricting, can it attack other characters with it's slam attack? In other words, does the slam attack get tied up in process of constricting, or does it get freed up to attack others?

Once a creature is grappling, it is subject to all the rules of grappling. Specifically, it does unarmed strike damage, is denied its Dex bonus to AC against all creatures it is not grappling, makes grapple checks based on BAB, and threatens no squares.

A creature with Constrict, like our ooze, has the ability to do more than its unarmed strike damage.

A creature with Improved Grab has the ability to take a -20 penalty on its grapple checks in order to coniser itself not grappled.

So the ooze could only attack another creature with its slam attack if it takes that -20 penalty. That penalty would then apply until the creature's next turn, making it much easier for the grappled creature to escape (or, ironically, pin the ooze! ).

3) If it can attack others, is it able to constrict more characters?

Yep.

4) While the monster is constricticting a character, suppose an area affect spell hits them both (fireball, flamestrike, etc). Is there any penalty to the character or monster's reflex saves or related reflex abilities such as evasion or improved evasion?

Nope.

 

[Kalendraf]

Thanks for the response. Looks like I've been handling it correctly after all. Phew!

For those wondering, I challenged a 12th level party with an advanced 18HD Ochre Jelly (by the rules +3 CR for +12HD and +1 CR for size bump, so roughly a CR9 challenge). With over 240 hp, it nearly killed the monk w/ it's grapple damage, before the party could defeat it. It also happened to split twice (electrical attack and a slashing attack) before the battle ended. Pretty respectable for a supposedly EL-3 encounter!

 

[Pielorinho]

In my experience, pretty much all large creatures are better off dropping their weapons and grappling than they are doing anything else. Often they can even compromise, grappling a wizard in an off-hand with a -20 penalty and still maintaining the grapple while beating on the rogue with a weapon in the other hand (or even with the wizard!)

I don't like that, so I've played with different ways to nerf the grapple. My favorite idea is to reduce size bonuses/penalties to +2 from +4.

Daniel

 

[shilsen]

Thanks for the response. Looks like I've been handling it correctly after all. Phew!

For those wondering, I challenged a 12th level party with an advanced 18HD Ochre Jelly (by the rules +3 CR for +12HD and +1 CR for size bump, so roughly a CR9 challenge). With over 240 hp, it nearly killed the monk w/ it's grapple damage, before the party could defeat it. It also happened to split twice (electrical attack and a slashing attack) before the battle ended. Pretty respectable for a supposedly EL-3 encounter!

Nice! Depending on your specific choice, advancing creatures allows one to create enemies much tougher than their purported CR. That's especially true for the types where CR increases by +1 per 3 or 4 HD added.

 

[Kalendraf]

Nice! Depending on your specific choice, advancing creatures allows one to create enemies much tougher than their purported CR. That's especially true for the types where CR increases by +1 per 3 or 4 HD added.

Right. In this case, the room terrain was a slight modifier (probably +1 CR) and the encounter played out about like a CR 11 or 12 probably would have, so my guess is that the 18 HD Advanced Ochre Jelly is a tad bit higher than CR9.

The best part was that the characters didn't know it was even a jelly at first - I described it as a thick yellowish liquid rising up thru cracks in the floor, which they assumed to be part of an acid trap in the room. Nobody has Knowledge (Dungeoneering), or they may have gotten a chance to figure out what it was. I haven't used many oozes before this, either, so player knowledge didn't creep in to ruin the fun. After it had risen up, it lunged 10' (ooze making a charge attack, oh yeah!) and reached out and pulled in the monk. Pretty sweet.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Note that, had the ooze targeted anyone but the monk (who I assume is a grappling monk; most are), you'd likely have at least one dead character on your hand.

That's the real danger with grappling enemies.

 

[Pielorinho]

The best part was that the characters didn't know it was even a jelly at first - I described it as a thick yellowish liquid rising up thru cracks in the floor, which they assumed to be part of an acid trap in the room.

Oh, that is a fantastic image! Consider it stolen.

Daniel

 

[Kalendraf]

Note that, had the ooze targeted anyone but the monk (who I assume is a grappling monk; most are), you'd likely have at least one dead character on your hand.

Possibly, but not necessarily for the obvious reasons.

First of all, the damage dealt by the ooze was around 70 hp of damage. Alone, that would not be enough to kill the monk, the fighter/barbarian or the cleric. These are after all ~12th level characters with fairly decent hit points.

However, a large chunk of the damage to the ochre jelly was dealt by the druid flamestriking it twice (2 x [edit]11d6) and the monk took no damage from either of those strikes due to his improved evasion. (Hence, the reason I asked in my initial post if I'd handled that correctly)

Had that been the cleric grappled instead, he would have no doubt been fried to a crisp, or the druid would have had to try something else much less effective, and in the process the cleric very likely would have died from the extra turn or two of constriction damage.

It's possible the fighter/barbarian could have survived some of the additional flamestrike damage, but probably not all of it. Then again, he does have a high dex, and manages to make quite a few reflex saves, so it's possible he may have pulled thru this.

The rogue's improved evasion would have given him a good shot at avoiding the flamestrike damage, and he may have been able to survive enough of the ooze's damage to live. At the moment, he's got DR 5/silver because he's an inflicted wererat (long story). It would have been extremely close though.

The other 2 characters (bard & druid) would have likely died. But that's why they usually hang back and let others stumble into the dangerous areas first.

 

[Amal Shukup]

It appears that in the same round, the ochre jelly can...
A) Make an attack dealing slam+acid damage.
B) If that is successful, attempt a grapple to gain a hold for constrict
C) If that is successful, deal slam+acid damage again.

My read differs somewhat from the consensus so far. I'm prepared to be incorrect, however...

A and B, yes. Attempting the Grapple is a Free Action. If successful, the creature is 'Grappling' the character. I see this as being the equivalent of achieving a 'Hold' (which the critter gets to do free AFTER damaging the victim with a normal hit - as opposed to having to make a Touch Attack and provoking an AOO.

The NEXT Attack (if additional iterative attacks are available), or the next round, the critter can automatically do Slam + Acid Damage by making a succesful Grapple Check.

2) Once a monster like this is constricting, can it attack other characters with it's slam attack?

I believe so. Tentacled critters can continue to use their remaining tentacles - I picture the Ooze simply extending another pseudopod or something... The -20 mechanic mentioned above is applicable, I think.

4) While the monster is constricticting a character, suppose an area affect spell hits them both (fireball, flamestrike, etc). Is there any penalty to the character or monster's reflex saves or related reflex abilities such as evasion or improved evasion?

Well, yeah. Constricted Characters lose their Dexterity bonusses - which ought to negatively impact Saves. They certainly still get one, though. Also, if I were a smaller creature being constricted by a larger one, I'd certainly whinge for a Cover Bonus...

A'Mal