Vehicle constructin idea...

[BlackJaw]

While working on this whole thing, I've got the good and solid impression that the the system I'm working on is fairly complicated... a lot like building your own Monster.

I was wondering if a character class / race like system might be another way to go.

Race is the type of vehilce (plant/construct/etc)
Then you add on "classes" which would indicate the function of the vehicle. Speed/manuvering/defense/combat/cargo/life system.

Each level of the function would help alter the vehicle... so 3 levels of speed and 2 levels of defense might give armor and speed.

I haven't thought this all the way out... but its an interesting idea that might make vehicle construction like making an NPC or PC.

Of course calling them race and class isn't a good idea... they aren't exactly the same.

This sort of replaces the idea components and unit measurements.

Basicaly instead of saying each HD is 1 component, and you spend components on equipment from engines to weapons, instead you say "its a 15 HD vehicle, 5 speed, 5 manuvering, 2 weapons, 2 armor, 1 life support"

"levels" of weapons still needs you to buy weapons, but it gives you places to put them. Levels of defense gives you armor or sheilds or both. levels of life support give bunk space, and other things to make it more livable on the ship, speed and manuvering are fairly obvious... speed and manuvering ratting.

Things like blimps/etc would be akin to feats?

Is this idea better or clearer? cleaner? or is this going to far off into left field?

 

[BlackJaw]

Here are some more notes. I'm sort of posting them so I can come back to them latter, and to see if anyone who reads this (is anyone reading this?!) thinks I'm on the right track. I may have vowed to keep this project from death, but man is the birth slow and painful. I work better with an audiance by the way.

a vehicle has hit dice (the number of hitdice depends on size, with a range for each size.)

Each hit die represents some internal space on the vehicle, while vehicles of various sizes have default speeds and manuvernig (or default speed points etc)

Devoting HD to weapons lets you mount one "medium vehicle weapon" per hit dice. Various weapons cost various amounts (catapult vs balista vs cannon vs energy weapon.) You can also devote more then one hit dice to a single weapon, increasing its size (and therefore for its damage dice or other properties, and price).

Build a weapon:
weapon damage is 1d6 medium, and does peircing damage (defualt) and takes a full round to reload.
by adding money you can increase the rate of fire (full -> standard -> move -> free), or change the damage type to peircing, bludgeoning (cheap) or even energy types (fire, lightning etc), or even past that to force or some other rare and powerful damage types. weapons that do standard 3 damage types (B/P/S) require ammo, all others need energy.

Every time you double the weapon's hit dice (1 to 2, then 4, 8, 16, 32, 64) you also increase the weapon's size (?) maybe just add 1 HD to increase size, and cap it at same size as vehicle or maybe a size larger (closer to real weapon system that way).

The Hit Dice can also be used for other systems:
cargo and crew components. for every HD aloted, you get a room that is effectively 5 x 5 x 5 at medium, double that at large, etc per hit dice. Thus large vessels can have massive cargo holds. Also, this space is used to furnish rooms, quarters, brigs, etc. ALL of which is pade for seperatly (pricing guides to be made? Stonghold Builder's book is not OGC or even 3.5). The cargo/crew hit dice cost just covers the walls and doors. tables, beds, and otehr furniture are paid for on your own.

Life support HD can provide protection/air/etc for one crew member at medium size vehicle. larger vehicles, on HD goes farther. 2 people at large, 4 huge, etc. larger ships often need many life support components for their large crews even though the HD spent on life support go farther. (note that what I'm saying here is that the amount of "hull space" a HD represents is no more spicific then the length of a round in combat. Its a general concept. On a smaller vehilce is represents a small amount of space, on a larger it represents a larger amount of space. The point is to keep wealthy characters from being able to tack anything and everything into a vehicle... a concept not especialy realistic or fun.)

Natural armor = internal durability of the crafts design and structure. Reinforcing a craft increases natural armor because blows that penetrate the outer shell or plating of the vehicle still arn't doing a lot of damage.
Armor bonus = armor platting on the out side of the vehicle. Armor bonuses are a lot like our armor (make a list) although a single HD devoted to armor only provides an armor bonus equal to... (build mechanic for how many HD provides how much armor!)
deflection bonus = magic/technological/psionic/magnetic/etc feild that provides a deflection bonus
sheild bonus = a protective solid feild around a vehicle. often a force effect (force sheild) Again, a highly magical or technilogical concept. like the deflection concept above.

maybe a point buy for the vehicle's "physical" stats? maybe not. I'm not so sure the vehicle needs most stats. vehicles would have no INT, WIS, CHA, CON, so do we really need a Strength and Dexterity? Strength would be used for cargo weight limits and maybe melee weapons (rare that they are). Dexterity is generaly that of the pilots... so it's not really needed either. SO what we have is a Str score only. No point buy if you have 1 stat... we need a new system. Something tied to the engine I would guess. base 10 and then better engines get you more strength. remember that lifting power for "creatures" multiplies with size already under 3.5 core rules.

Magicaly enhancing vehicles. While some vehicles are powered by or in part magical, that does not mean they are gaint completly magic devices. adding full magical items or similar powers can be done, but it generlay just as expensive as equiping a person, and in many cases MORE expensive.
Vehicle weapons can be enchanted like any other. That balista can be made +1 flaming for 8300 extra. (8000 for +2 equiv, and 300 for masterwork)
Similarly the vehicle's armor can be enchanted same as any other armor. +3 plate armor on vessel is easy enough to understand and price improvements. Remember that masterwork is an extra price for better workmanship, note better materials so putting masterwork armor on a vehicle is always just 150 more regardless of the size of the vehicle. Of course it does very little as masterwork armor doesn't increase the armor bonus.
Other magical effects (invisiblity, teleporting, etc) requires more help to pull off. aside from armor and weapons, vehicles don't start with any "magic item slots" or any way to use any other magic items. Thus, to add a magic effect to a vehicle, you need to build a vehicle component as a magic item. probalby best done using either build construct or wounderous item feats. A new craft feat isn't a great idea if it can be avoided. it's possible to integrate magic effects into a vehicle without a component slot, but it costs twice as much (just like any other slot less magic item). So for standard price you get a 1 HD magic component. for twice that you can have the craft itself enhanced (using no HD/component slots used up).

Remember vehicles are not the same as vessels, and need help being magicaly effected. For every size category the vessel is above the caster's natural own (for most PC races this is Medium), it increases the cost of the spell by 1 level. (meta magic feat for this). This same system is used to make magic ship components. need to a teleport drive (50 charges) well that's harder on a big ship. The teleport reactors on the massive ships are more artifact then magic item, which makes sense. beyond that types still apply. some spells don't work on constructs, undead, plants, abberations... all that still applies.

 

[tecnowraith]

Hey Blackjaw, I just reading some your rules and I am liking what I am seeing. I do have aquestion. What your ideas on customizing just the engine itself? Like how Han Solo customized the Falcon's engines/hyperdrives or how a street racer keeps the body of the car but upgrades the engine. I see soemthing about a slot use but still unclear.

 

[BlackJaw]

Hey Blackjaw, I just reading some your rules and I am liking what I am seeing. I do have aquestion. What your ideas on customizing just the engine itself? Like how Han Solo customized the Falcon's engines/hyperdrives or how a street racer keeps the body of the car but upgrades the engine. I see soemthing about a slot use but still unclear.

It's still being worked out. The hard part is the question of how much of this should be balanced againts price and how much againts slot use. Also, do I want a system of "speed points and lift points and manuvering points" compared to a chart with various vehicle sizes listed on it or something simpler but harder to balance? (I like simple but it may take some creative stroke of quasi-genius to pull it off with balance but still being easy to use for everyone... I got some ideas)

Slots are concept (and poorly named one that is all my fault) where for each hit dice the vehicle has, it gets 1 slot. slots can be filled with just about any ship system. Basicaly a set of vehicle Hit Dice is a shell, frame, or empty hull. Slots determine just how many systems you can fit in it. It makes you decide how much space to spend on engines vs armor vs weapons vs personal space vs cargo space vs everything else. Sure you could use that extra couple of slots to get another gun (or bigger gun) on the ship, but do they with no sleeping space or life support everyone on the ship will need a space suit and their own supply of air. (works on a fighter craft, but not the mothership)

Anyway this is where I stand... either slots or class/race/feat system. I figure either way price is the main balancing factor. Ship size and HD/class level will be used to limit size (no matter how rich your are and how much magic & science is in your world, you can't fit 3 of every system in a tiny ship.) It's a realism factor with that. Most ship systems I run into use a "this much to add or improve one of these base vehicles" system. Pick a trader, fighter, etc base then tweak. Thing is that's limited for settings. DMs still have to design bases that fit their game. I'd prefer a balanced system that isn't setting spicific (simply limit the availible components to limit what setting tech/magic is availble kind of a thing) but then you end up with what is basicaly Alternity's ship system. I liked that system, but it was a complex point buy sort of a thing (so was the alternity character system) and thus I think it might be better to model it more on D&D character creation (something that most players can handle fairly well or would at least be familiar with)

To put it another way: component systems mean that some systems use up more then one componenent slot. A big engine device needs 3-4, while a smaller device needs only 1. engines and weapons and power cores (which in fanatsy and sci-fi are often very large parts of a craft) may have a scalling system. There may be a massive list of systems, broken down into types. 10 types of engines, each with its own price, power usage, manuvering, and size in component slots.

The class based system would be very diffrent (and I'm starting to think much better). Every level of a ship's purpose adds powers and base abilities... but it also adds some basic functions. Thus a level of Engines may increase vehicle speed quickly (just like a level of fighter ups BAB quickly) but slowly increase comfort features or life support features... (just like a level of fighter provides slow Will save bonuses) and no bonuses of some other type (such as fighter level giving no Caseter levels or magic)... keeping players from building a massive gun ship with 1 seat and no living space... etc. I figure in a system like this you could have a lot of special features that are like feats. they give an ability and have requirements. Heck even a skill like system might work for things like sensor powers, etc.

Lets see, each level provides Speed points, manuvering points, armor class (or natural armor class?) weapon mounts, and special features. (maybe crew/cargo space should be in here too? Power might be another one that is important... espeicaly if some systems and weapons require extra power.) Example:
Weapon level provides weapon mounts at each level, with a moderate armor & natural armor increase. It provides a slow increase in engines, manuvering, and special features.
A level in Speed would rapidly increase vehicle speed quickly but with little increase in manuvering, or anything else.
A level of Support would rapidly increase internal space and special features, but a slower increase in weapon mounts, speed, etc.

Level types:
Speed, Manuvering, Weapons, Defense/armor, Support

Type of vehicle would determine the HD used for each level, hardness and maybe base natural armor. (base natural armor should also be sized based too?) Types would be Construct, Plant, Aberration, Undead(?), Vermin(?), and Construct. Real world vehilce would all be construct but in a fantasy setting (or sci-fi one) could be living vehicles.

Now the level of a vehicle (level is a base name... needs a new one) is determined by size. larger vehilces have more levels. A vehicle can gain levels by having some one work on them to increase size (or a living vehicle might grow with time) but it can't get larger (more levels) then it's current size... so you can rebuild it over and over taking engines and systems out and putting in new ones, but you can't make the hull any bigger (again living ships in theory could!)

These arn't character so much as items after all, and the levels represent functions, but ship's overall level (again level is a bad term, but its what i'm basing this of off) represents the hull's size and capcity to hold systems.

Now pricing is still the main system here. Each "level" requires more cash. (I could easily make a price and D20 DC for price). Weapon slots do not give you weapons, but they do give you weapon slots (as discused above) which you must then pruchase seperatly. you can get cool magic ones, but they cost the same as a magic sword in as far as powers and bonuses. Similarly, the special features will have price tags connected to them as a requirement.

I'm working on it, but I think this system is easier to use but still makes things highly adaptable and customizable. It would also be familiar to D&D players that way.

 

[tecnowraith]

Ok, yeah i see now. What about modify the engine?

In my world I'm doing the same thing, using a slot/link system. The enigine uses power stones which each stone is some type of energy like electric, kenitic, fire or magma and so on. Each engine has an even number of slots for you to install the stones in a certain combo to gett a unique effect. 2 slots for smaller, 4 for medium, 6 for big, 8 for4 large and so forth. Then taking the slots system from yours for hull/body, it works alot better than the ones i have seen. The type of engine for my world is great for adventuring like needing the stone to get engine to so the players to to find it, buy it from the market, steal it from the master thief or help the king to get the stone foran award.
You notice that the idea is similar to Final Fantasy 7 and Stargate uses this as well but I have never seen in a table-top RPG game.

 

[BlackJaw]

In my world I'm doing the same thing, using a slot/link system. The enigine uses power stones which each stone is some type of energy like electric, kenitic, fire or magma and so on. Each engine has an even number of slots for you to install the stones in a certain combo to gett a unique effect. 2 slots for smaller, 4 for medium, 6 for big, 8 for4 large and so forth. Then taking the slots system from yours for hull/body, it works alot better than the ones i have seen. The type of engine for my world is great for adventuring like needing the stone to get engine to so the players to to find it, buy it from the market, steal it from the master thief or help the king to get the stone foran award.
You notice that the idea is similar to Final Fantasy 7 and Stargate uses this as well but I have never seen in a table-top RPG game.

That system has a lot of style, including the sort of style I might use in a setting that has been in my head for a long time... Anyway, it's so full of style that it becomes to spicific a system for the Cosmonomicon. I'm intentionaly trying to be non-spicific so that the rules can be used for just about anything. "levels" of engine in my current concept. Your idea is cool and has been cut/pasted into a text file for remembering for later.

Systems (the tech or magic) like interesting power sources, engines, weapons, or special defensive systems with style are what often give a setting or game the right feel. the problem here is how do I make an open system that doesn't force on concept on everyone, but is still easy to add things like this too it?

I could make a side-bar about this kind of thing, or list some options, etc... I think side bar is the best idea, but to leave little to no crunchy rules for it. I couldn't realy hope to provide ways of doing everything and make it all work with or around each other or fairly.

Right now I figure you either put "levels" into engines/propulsion/etc and each rank in that "level" lets you make your vehicle fly faster or more manuverable, etc. Engines in that case are done with levels... To intigrate a system like yours would be to make those options tied to stones. Characters in your settings could change stones to change some effects of their vehicle? hmmm see... not easy. your system works on a 2/4/6/8 kind of system... but my rules cover vehicles of many sizes and LOTS of hit dice... so larger vessels in such a system would have many stones... or need many stones... hmmm.

 

[tecnowraith]

To put it another way: component systems mean that some systems use up more then one componenent slot. A big engine device needs 3-4, while a smaller device needs only 1. engines and weapons and power cores (which in fanatsy and sci-fi are often very large parts of a craft) may have a scalling system. There may be a massive list of systems, broken down into types. 10 types of engines, each with its own price, power usage, manuvering, and size in component slots.

The class based system would be very diffrent (and I'm starting to think much better). Every level of a ship's purpose adds powers and base abilities... but it also adds some basic functions. Thus a level of Engines may increase vehicle speed quickly (just like a level of fighter ups BAB quickly) but slowly increase comfort features or life support features... (just like a level of fighter provides slow Will save bonuses) and no bonuses of some other type (such as fighter level giving no Caseter levels or magic)... keeping players from building a massive gun ship with 1 seat and no living space... etc. I figure in a system like this you could have a lot of special features that are like feats. they give an ability and have requirements. Heck even a skill like system might work for things like sensor powers, etc.

Lets see, each level provides Speed points, manuvering points, armor class (or natural armor class?) weapon mounts, and special features. (maybe crew/cargo space should be in here too? Power might be another one that is important... espeicaly if some systems and weapons require extra power.) Example:
Weapon level provides weapon mounts at each level, with a moderate armor & natural armor increase. It provides a slow increase in engines, manuvering, and special features.
A level in Speed would rapidly increase vehicle speed quickly but with little increase in manuvering, or anything else.
A level of Support would rapidly increase internal space and special features, but a slower increase in weapon mounts, speed, etc.

Level types:
Speed, Manuvering, Weapons, Defense/armor, Support

Type of vehicle would determine the HD used for each level, hardness and maybe base natural armor. (base natural armor should also be sized based too?) Types would be Construct, Plant, Aberration, Undead(?), Vermin(?), and Construct. Real world vehilce would all be construct but in a fantasy setting (or sci-fi one) could be living vehicles.

Ok so with this you can modify the engine? You just need to have special componets just for the engine?

 

[BlackJaw]

Ok, with either system you can make an engine for a vehicle. Key there is make an engine.

The idea is that you make vehicles custom (once a set of stats are made you could use them over and over again mind you). Your not stuck with a set of static figures for "this is a fighter" etc.

So to that end you make engines from scratch so you could make them how ever you want... two otherwise identicle vehilces could have completly seperate engines (and thus completly seperate stats as far as speed, manuvering, hovering/min speed... etc)

However, if your asking if the engines can be modified once built... as in the players in the middle of an adventure want to change their vehicle so its faster instead of manuverable/etc... well I hadn't considered that. (I guess that's what you gem system would do... swap gems around and your vehicle goes from being fast to manuverable/etc in as fast as it takes to swap them)

It would be possible I suppose. If I build the class system (I've decided to use a class/level like system instead of a component system) so that "engines/etc" is class, and each level lets you pick an enhancement to one of 3-4 flight properiteis (speed, manuvering, min-speed or hovering, etc) I supose with some tweaking it would be possible to make that work for changes on the fly in a setting that supported it. Is that what your asking about?

I'm not clear on what you mean by modify the engines...

1) Make up your own isntead of using just a handful of basic ones.
2) make changes on the fly
3) take you vehicle into "the shop" and have the engines tweaked or changed.

I'll go head and answer all 3:
1) Yup, that's the point. make your own vehicles because just using stock ships sucks, especialy if they don't fit your setting. this way you get to make ships that meet your needs, or even let your players make ships the way they want.
2) I dunno about on the fly tweaks... it might be a lot of work to try and do (and redo) in the middle of combat... sort of like all of a sudden saying "I'm taking a standard action to turn all my monk levels into paladin levels!" I'll work on it as an idea.
3) Yes, it would be possible to change parts out using the same system for making new vehicles (it would just be some notes in the system for pricing it that way)... but it would take a bit of time (like converting levels of ex-paladin to black guard) and thus not something to be done in combat.

That help?

PS: do you have a better name then class and level for ranks of vehicle sub-functions?
Example: 12 hd vehicle might be Engine 5, Weapon 2, Armor 2, Support 3. Those arn't classes, (although it is similar) so what do we call those? Similarly would those be levels in those "Classes?" I think they should be called ranks or something like that...

 

[tecnowraith]

Yeah examples 1 and 3 is what I am talking about. My stones idea would use exmples 1 and 3 as well. The reason for is what if the Dm wants create a campaign with both street and circuit races for vehicles? Drivers and mechanics now do this as well and I have never seen this in D20 rules. The Poly issue of Thunderball Rally with its vehicles rules did not have this option. Also there alot of fans of Sspeed Racer, Need for Speed, or any other racing video games that does upgrades and rebuilds.

Hmmm naming the system other a class? I have to think on that.

 

[BlackJaw]

Oh yah build it yourself and tweak it to high heck is the point. It's the whole Milenium falcon concept... it's fast because Solo modified it to be fast.

Players won't be happy with just and off the shelf ship... they want to make it the fastest around. We can do that... but you'll need a bigger engine, or one directed more at speed and manuveing. It's a strategy sort of thing. better engines require more levels in engine... which means you have less for htings like guns or amror. it's not just that the engine is bigger, it that it will need more space for things like a bigger power source for the better engine, etc.

Now it woudl be easy to latter take the vehicle back into the shop and have the engine reworked. maybe it's more then fast enough, but you decide you really need it to be a bit more manuverable... so you take it into the shop and they either tweak the engine or replace it... and rework those levels you took in engine so that you direct more of them toward manuveirng (and thus less to speed) then you did before... or you have them gut some other system (maybe the armor levels) to get a bigger engine (more engine ranks/levels) in there.

this of course all costs money, (less then buying a new ship though) for parts and labor. And it takes time. it also requires the player to sit down and rework some stats on his vehicle so its not somethign that could be done in the middle of combat anymore charcter leveling can be.

I hope that gives you the answer your hoping for.