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[Very Long] Combat as Sport vs. Combat as War: a Key Difference in D&D Play Styles...

Hassassin

First Post
I think almost everyone is. However I and many others think that so-called 'disassociated mechanics' are a steaming pile of ** moderate your language please ** made up by someone as an excuse for a prejudice rather than an explanation.

It's not a "prejudice": it's a preference.

Like all subjective things it's not black and white either. Some mechanic feels dissociated to some people, another to some. The only objective measure is whether 10% or 90% consider a particular mechanic dissociated.

Edit: Of course, this has nothing to do with CAW vs. CAS. I probably shouldn't have replied.
 
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It's not a "prejudice": it's a preference.

Like all subjective things it's not black and white either. Some mechanic feels dissociated to some people, another to some. The only objective measure is whether 10% or 90% consider a particular mechanic dissociated.

Edit: Of course, this has nothing to do with CAW vs. CAS. I probably shouldn't have replied.

Hmmmm, not sure it really IS unrelated.

Here's the thing. If you are going to do a lot of 'off label' type uses of things in say AD&D you have a bunch of spells and equipment and whatnot that has effects that are very much based on "here's the in-world explanation of what is going on" and some obvious mechanics are provided for the straightforward use. The "Horn of Blasting" makes a magically powerful blast of sound. Whatever happens next is pretty much up to the imagination of the DM. There's some mechanics attached that you can generally spin that from.

Now, a 4e version of a "Horn of Blasting" presumably will tell you just some specific mechanical effects, and some suggested narrative. The player uses it mechanically as described, but he or the DM could describe it as any number of things that they can imagine.

However, I will note that 4e's rules never state anywhere that things "always work a specific way" and that mechanics can't be adjusted to situation. This seems to be a trope that people have developed, but it is not present in the rules. Of course if you want to do that you need to nail down the in-world explanation of how a given item works. As long as the people at the table are OK with doing that themselves, then you can do a lot of interesting stuff with the freedom you have with the 4e items and spells etc since they are LESS nailed down to specific definitions out of the book. My take from the reaction to 4e is not very many players are really interested in doing that, and that 4e really should have had heavier fluff because people seem to run short of ideas without it. They did move in that direction steadily since the game was released, which seems to be an improvement.

The other part of that is of course page 42, which is a great resource. It is again rather undersold by 4e, and presumably RoT for this week seems to indicate that they'll sell something like that a lot harder and it will be presented as more of a centerpiece of the game in 5e.

I guess the upshot is that people argue about which type of system is better for 'CaW' or 'Cas', but I think it has far more to do with how your group approaches using the rules than anything else. IMHO a more structured system like 4e with 'disassociated' fluff (I don't like that word either really) CAN be a more powerful tool. OTOH it isn't ACTUALLY better for a lot of people from what I can see, and I can only assume they know what works best for them.

Relating this to 5e again though, there's a big question here. I haven't seen much in the way of understanding of the 4e approach to this lately. It isn't something that can be 'modular' because it is an overall issue of system presentation. I think it would be sad if 'mechanics first' is considered bad merely because 4e neglected to provide GOOD fluff rather than because the approach is fundamentally flawed.
 

JonWake

First Post
The entire concept of a fluff /crunch divide strikes me as shaky. I've made the argument that 4e is uniquely weird in RPGs for putting such a wall between the two. You could conceivably run a 4e battle without looking at the fictional world at all and it would run just as smoothly. Some people thing this is a feature, that the game is 'fun' without the need for excessive role playing, letting the RPG aspects remain in full control by the players.

My stance is that this is just weird. Not good or bad, but very unique. It also makes many types of gameplay impossibly obtuse.
 


Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
All:

Warning note - this thread is occasionally skirting near to 'edition war' territory. If it does again, we'll close it down.

You'll need to make your point without belittling other systems or people who prefer them (even if you don't like their terminology)

Thanks
 

The entire concept of a fluff /crunch divide strikes me as shaky. I've made the argument that 4e is uniquely weird in RPGs for putting such a wall between the two. You could conceivably run a 4e battle without looking at the fictional world at all and it would run just as smoothly. Some people thing this is a feature, that the game is 'fun' without the need for excessive role playing, letting the RPG aspects remain in full control by the players.

My stance is that this is just weird. Not good or bad, but very unique. It also makes many types of gameplay impossibly obtuse.

I think in any practical sense too much is made of it really. Again consider the "Horn of Blasting" example. I seriously doubt that the guy who wrote up this item for 4e thought along the lines of "Hmmmm, I need to make up an item that has a daily close blast 5 power that pushes enemies" (or whatever exactly HoB does, not going to look it up but it isn't really too relevant). Concept always precedes implementation. Oddly enough for most items the actual 1e and 4e mechanics are virtually identical. So we can observe that the developers of 4e considered it adequate to provide a briefer and physically separate fluff it is kind of dubious to state that the two are really 'divided' in the sense that there is an intent to make the fluff irrelevant to the adjudication of the effect in a specific situation. Clearly it is a LOT easier to reflavor something in 4e as there are probably many ways to explain in-game the more abstract mechanics. I've never really understood the position that the in-game explanation of things has nothing to say about how it is resolved in a SPECIFIC situation.

I guess my question is, once you realize there is no line drawn there is the 4e approach REALLY less flexible for the players in a specific game? Obviously specific items might be more or less useful in different situations depending on the specifics of the item, but I don't see that anything prevents equally clever use of items as a general concept in say 4e vs 1e. The same observations apply to spells, etc.

One way you can approach this stuff in 4e is to couple it with page 42 and the skill system. For instance using spells in unusual ways can be perfectly well handled using Arcana checks, page 42, and perhaps skill challenges. Of course this puts a bunch of onus on the DM to decide exactly what the limits are and provide narrative explanations of those limits where needed. This CAN however allow for a pretty wide variety of possible styles of play under what are technically one set of rules. Whether that's good or bad is of course open for debate.
 

JonWake

First Post
No, I don't think this was anything inherent in the rules, but I think it's a cultural shift in the player base, or at least, the vocal player base.

But I would argue your point here: when you read through the PHB powers list, there are dozens of examples where the power is just a slightly more powerful version of an earlier power with different 'fluff'. Stunning Groin Kick of Fury is just a slightly upgraded version of String The Devil's Banjo. This says to me that at least some designers, when faced with the daunting prospect of 30 levels of powers, just filed the serial numbers off other powers and wrote something like "With great alacrity and fury, you summon on your Primal spirit to stomp the enemy where the sun doesn't shine."
 

No, I don't think this was anything inherent in the rules, but I think it's a cultural shift in the player base, or at least, the vocal player base.

But I would argue your point here: when you read through the PHB powers list, there are dozens of examples where the power is just a slightly more powerful version of an earlier power with different 'fluff'. Stunning Groin Kick of Fury is just a slightly upgraded version of String The Devil's Banjo. This says to me that at least some designers, when faced with the daunting prospect of 30 levels of powers, just filed the serial numbers off other powers and wrote something like "With great alacrity and fury, you summon on your Primal spirit to stomp the enemy where the sun doesn't shine."

Well, this is kind of a separate issue and not really too relevant to the topic here, but I'd just basically note that in 4e you replace lower level powers with higher level ones, and thus often higher level powers ARE literally incremental improvements on lower level ones. I'm not really sure that says a lot about the overall intent. Presumably the designer is simply wanting to provide a more potent version of an option that a player can pick at higher level. I think it is fair to note that this creates a situation where the name and fluff of the higher level power is 'more of the same, but better' essentially.

There are 4e-specific questions about scalability and maintainability of the system that arise from this of course. IMHO it isn't an issue that touches on the basic concept and structure of powers or how adaptable they are. I think those issues have been pretty well discussed in other places though.

I don't doubt there is a vocal group of 4e advocates online that have a very militant idea about mechanics being uppermost. I question how much that exists in a practical sense in most real play, but I'd only be citing the anecdote of a couple groups I have run that don't seem to have that attitude. I suspect maybe 1 or 2 players I've run games for might come down on that side of things, possibly. 4e's presentation certainly didn't DETER that kind of thinking either, you were perfectly free to interpret it either way really as I read it. Maybe that was a bad thing? Not sure.
 

For me, this is one of the greatest things about RPGs - the ability to step away from the limitations of rules enumerating what the PCs can do and having them do stuff anyway because it makes sense.

Indeed, I think that's the primary advantage of D&D over computer games -- the ability to do the unexpected.

What's best in D&D to me?
1) The ability to do things the designer didn't expect you to do.

That can be full sandbox play, event driven or dungeon-crawling play where you don't do as the adventure author expected, or railroads where you go off the rails.

It can be CaW-style combat -- pulling out the alchemist fire or smoke sticks, using cover, using improved initiative sucker punching the bad guy before he knows the fight started, dropping food to distract the predator, using Unseen Servant to do something unexpected, etc.

Or a little broader like finding local allies to help you a little in the fight ("Rio Bravo" adventuring rather than "High Noon" adventuring -- not you alone against the baddies, but you and people you're helping against the baddies, even if they can't help much.)

Or much broader, like when my party was SUPPOSED to deal with the rebel baron by sneaking in the castle and killing him, but instead built a protest movement, studied the law and used the legal right to the redress of grievances to get an audience with him, and used a good argument (and a Diplomacy roll of natch 20!) to convince him to change his position instead of fighting him at all.

2) Combat that FEELS dangerous.

People don't really have to die, but it should feel like they could, at any moment. Which means swingy and unpredictable and a little scary, not grindy or balanced. You have critical hits, you have relatively low HP relative to damage, and maybe you even have some save or die effects.

And you have ways to stave off danger at a cost, like healing magic that's limited, potions that are rare, and perhaps -10 hp before you actually die (instead of just being nearly dead).

If a PC is going to die, harebrained rules lawyering interpretations to prevent it are OK. For example, once a PC druid was knocked to -1 hp by a shadow in a fight in a graveyard, next to a temple. They were supposed to be dead and turn into a shadow. I ruled the PC would turn at the end of his next action, so the others had a chance to save him. The cleric was too far to reach him and heal him. But another PC pulled a "Speak With Animals" to tell the druid's pet dog -- which acted on the same initiative as the druid -- to drag the druid into the temple, which he guessed (correctly) would be under clerical magic that prevents the undead from forming. So the druid was just unconscious, not a shadow.

Really exciting rolls by the enemy -- like a make or break attack when it's a near TPK -- should be rolled in the open, not behind the screen, so everyone can gasp or cheer at once.

3) The world makes sense.

Goblins need food and water. Goblin armies have logistics you can attack.

Humans have politics, laws, social classes, jobs, and economy. Trade makes sense, based on comparative advantage and logistical costs (so limited overland trade in bulky, low valued commodities). It's a working "Magical Mystical Society".

It's generally a low-level, gritty world. No magic street lamps or singing teapots, unless something special is going on. No magic to replace technology.

Most people use a plow and an ox to eak a living from the soil. The local tavernkeeper might have adventuring levels (especially if she's a retired PC from another campaign), but is more likely to be a low-level Commoner or Expert with appropriate skills to running a tavern.

Your local village doesn't have a magic store. It might have a hedgewizard (Adept) and probably has a Cleric of 1st-3rd level.

If the city even has a magic store, it has a limited inventory (because supply and cash to buy it are rare), you can't rob it without bringing down the rage of whoever put up the capital for it and the mages guild that gave it permission to operate. You can't even get discounts, because the guild regulates the prices. And like Tony say, the rules support the world making sense. Magic dealers must pay less when buying than when selling (regulated guild rate is 80% in my campaign), and there must be a profit margin for people who make magic items, to use a detailed example.

4) Zero to hero.

PC's start as gifted folks, but not much better than others, and follow the same rules as NPC's. PC's have a background -- and skills related to the background -- for what they did before they became adventurers.

PC's can advance quickly, and become important or famous. People who can cast 3rd level spells -- miracles like Fireball, Fly, and Create Food and Water -- are rare and important, and may become well know.

At higher levels -- maybe 7th-9th -- PC's are majorly important, and may get strongholds, followers, etc. They are truly "who's who" at this point. The game can change from dungeon crawling to building a settlement.

5) Story matters, the characters are important to the story's outcome, and their actions change the world.

There's more going on than just the "killing things and taking their stuff". With great power comes great responsibility, and the PC's must help "the good guys" or the good guys are in real trouble.

The PC's significantly drive how the story ends, and their actions will have a "persistent" effect on the world, which will change future situations for them and for other parties in the same world.

Because a PC party back 25 years ago now defeated the G123Q1 threat, Geoff and Sterich never fell, and my Greyhawk setting is "rewritten" to exclude that part of Living Greyhawk, for all my Greyhawk campaigns.

Actions can have unexpected, sometimes bad, consequences, too. A party in 1998 snatched Daoud's Wondrous Lanthorn from the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth for Bissel, eluding the Kettite patrols and adventurers who also wanted it. Shortly afterwards, Ket invaded Bissel, a major change in my version of Greyhawk, and the Lanthorn was a factor in that.

6) PC's are persistent.

Retired PC's, or PC's of someone who stops playing (or in one case, dies in real life) don't just disappear. They become NPC's in the background, sometimes important to the story of patrons/friends/helpers to the current PC's.

Superstar NPC's who were PC's in Gygax's campaign -- like Robilar or Mordenkainen -- may be mentioned in the background or (once) could even appear, but they never give PC's orders or use them as flunkies, as such folks were accused of doing in 2nd Edition FR modules. They aren't fundamentally different from the retired PC's or other NPC's -- they have their goals, and they are mortals.

7) All NPC's and monsters have their own goals, and act to achieve their goals to the best of their ability and knowledge. NPC's/monsters should be ROLEPLAYED, not played to defeat the PC's or be beaten by the PC's or "make a fun fight".

NPC's/monsters shouldn't do things to "make the fight interesting", but because they think it's what they think they should do. They can't act on knowledge that the DM has, but the NPC doesn't. When appropriate, some NPC's should fight to kill like tactical genius rat-you-know-whats, others should make rookie mistakes like opening themselves up to an AOO (if they are rookies or stupid). Monsters fleeing for their lives or surrendering should be definite possiblities.

That's my manifesto for now. I think it's mostly a CaW/grognard manifesto, but it's probably somewhat different from what other people think is CaW.
 
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Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
For me, this is one of the greatest things about RPGs - the ability to step away from the limitations of rules enumerating what the PCs can do and having them do stuff anyway because it makes sense. 4e's best contribution to D&D is probably page 42, which essentially endorses doing this sort of thing (although with some quirks to the design that could use fixing). Though, interestingly enough, a rogue setting a trap using those rules can do more damage than a wizard's fireball.
I like the ability to do a large number of things, some of which aren't written on your character sheet. That's an excellent part of the game.

But to me, a large amount of the excitement of the game comes from knowing that the combat capabilities of my character and my group will be put to the test. We will fight enemies that won't go down in one hit, that there is simply no easy solution to defeating the enemy except teamwork, proper tactics(which involves intelligent play, using your abilities when they are most effective against targets they work well against, and so on), and a bit of luck.

I find it extremely disappointing from either side of the DM screen when and encounter is taken from the above to a situation like "I cast stone to mud on the ground, the enemy sinks in and drowns in the mud". It seems so anticlimactic....If the enemy is that easy to defeat, then they were never a threat to begin with.

Back when I allowed "creative play" all the time, every single battle ended like that. They all ended in a way that ignored the strength of the enemy. It didn't matter if it was a 20th level wizard or a commoner, they both drown in mud just the same. It doesn't matter what the combat stats of the enemy are or how many hitpoints they have. The only way to make sure that a battle actually had multiple rounds of give and take was to make sure that ALL "off the character sheet" options were balanced with all on the character sheet options.

Sure, someone can shoot that barrel of gunpowder behind the enemy, but they should expect it to do the same as one of their daily powers. They can set up a trap, but they should expect it to do no more than an encounter power. Even if it would "make sense" to have it be instant death.
 

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