Vessels vs Vehicles?

[barsoomcore]

I think we need two terms to denote things characters might be flying around in -- mechanical devices or animals.

The difference is Speed. An animal can take two Move actions and double its speed. A machine cannot.

On the other hand, both animals and machines obey Maneuvering rules, so we need to include both.

My suggestions is this: a Vessel is anything a character might travel upon, be it fish, fowl, flesh or factory-made. Characters may need to use their skills to control Vessels, but they may not -- the Vessel may be able to control itself. Broadly, there are two types of Vessels: creatures and vehicles. The most significant difference between the two is the ability to take double move or run actions -- only creatures can do that. Vehicles cannot increase their maximum Speed in this way.

I guess this breaks down with muscle-powered vehicles like bicycles, but give me a break.

 

[BlackJaw]

Ok, so we use vessel as written, but in the section of flying vehicles, we include special rules using the vehicle term. not a problem. (more work, but it makes it clearer).

good idea.

 

[BlackJaw]

Seperating vessel rules and vehicle rules:

A flying monster (or a character with proper spells or magic items) is considered a vessel and a pilot (he his flying himself around after all). This is a direct connetino between vessel and pilot and it generaly easier to fly and otherwise operate in the air.

A flying vehicle is another matter. The pilot is a person using a device to fly. This more dificult to do and a number of special rules apply to such vessels.

The following bits of rules only apply to vehicles:

Firing Arcs: "Also, all of a vessel’s weapons are assigned a facing. They point forward, left, right, or reverse. These are called firing arcs. A vessel weapon can only attack targets within its firing arc." Only vehicles have mounted weapons with spicific firing arcs.

No Double Moves: Only vehicles are restricted from moving twice. This is because a vehicle does not require extra effort to move faster... the vehicle is a device that moves at a set speed, generaly faster then most creatures. If the pilot takes extra effort he only gains a second stunt and more total turning.

Vessel Weapons: This should be Vehicle weapons now. They only apply to vehicle weapons.

Damage & Destruction: Most of these rules only apply to vehicles. The imporant rule for creatuers is that you remain airborn as long as you have 1 hitpoint.

Landing and Take off Stunts: I'm not sure landing and take off for creatuers is good as written.

Attacking Vessel Weapons and Defenses: These "vehicle" weapons and defences only apply to vehicle combat (although a dragon could attack a vessel weapon, it doesn't have any and so these rules go in vheicle sections.

One handing Piloting: only applys if you are at the controls of a vehicle.

Guided Weapons: only works for vehicles weapons like missle luanchers.

Disarm: the rule againts disarming is only with or againts vehicle weapons. (you can't use a tubro lazer to shot a knife out of antoehr person's hands, and you can't use one to "disarm" an x-wing of it's turbo lazer.)

 

[Sidran]

OGC SPELLJAMMER RULES that
http://www.darkwood.org/sj/rules/lscs/

Neo’s Guide to Starcraft creation for Dragonstar d20
as well as FFG’s Seafarers adventurer creation rules are useful starting points

 

[BlackJaw]

Spelljammer is a licence of Wizards of the Coast, and it was recently published and used in a Dungeon/Polyhydra magazine... That article does not classifly any of that information OGC, so to avoid stepping on any toes (current or future) I am not going to use the exact names or titles of any other games... but I will hint at them strongly.

Also, while DragonStar does have OGC that is only for their special rules, all story and setting content is (for the most part) closed content. Once again I will provide similar titles or bits of information but I will not use their exact content.

Keep in mind that just because some one has a website with this information, and they say their information is OGC, does not mean that it meets the OGC requirments. "Dragonstar" and especialy "Spelljammer" do belong to companies.

I also have a system in place for vehicle construction that allows for an extream amount of customization. It also works for a wide range in size and types of vehicles. I like the concept of small "flying motor cycles" as much as I like giant ships in the sky, and most systems avalible do not work well across both. The spelljammer example you posted is designed for larger vessels, not small ones. It was discussed in much older posts on this board but it losely works as such:

You pick a hull. a hull is the vessel's size and HD, and they have a number of other properties as well. Next you pick the hull type. Most are just objects or "vehicles" but there are rules for "golem ships" and undead, and living plants (elves like those) etc.

Next you pick the guts of the ship. A Hull's HD determiens how much it can hold, and some parts are bigger then others. A jet engine (for example) uses 2 slots up, and then you still need space for fuel tanks.

After you pick your vessel systems, you then add up all it's difrent bits of information and look up a few tables, and you have the full vehicle stats. vehicle building is a little complex, but once you add it all up you get the basic vehicle stats so you don't need to constantly look up ship information.

What I'm up to right now

 

[Sidran]

http://www.geocities.com/dhomandred/index.html

Was actually what I was talking about, and its his personal rules he wrote and posted the site info at over in D20 System Games

The Spelljammer Stuff was a Online groups Spelljammer Rules that are in their beta version ( not WoTC) so take it leave it, its up to you.

But next time be more nice to people that are trying to help.
Blackjaw I dont know if you've got something against me personally or something but you have been awefully rude.

I asked you to tell me what to do to help and I would, nothing,

The PrC Ideas is a take or leave it sort of thing when they first started talking about this they wanted a few PrC's for Old times sake things that vaguely were reminiscent of the old Spelljammer stuff to pull in the Older gamers, you know the ones who hadn't quite convinced themselves to buy the new books, and it was also a tool to get those already playing the new edition to download the PDF, its just good service playing the Nostalgia to people who would like to see Helm rules or what have you.
And personally this didnt start so that people could be trekkies and play the bridge crew of the Enterprise we were throwing alot of stuff around, and we did chat about spacecraft, but were going to go ahead with just the Fantasy end of the Spectrum. after all T20 Dragonstar, and Star Wars have already worked the theme of Sci-fi D20 stuff. Not much besides a few private ventures has been done for the lost age of Spelljammer/ or for that matter just the Airship Adventuring. anyway I guess the standard we set in the past is not what you are looking for now so Ill stay out of your way.

One last thing is we were orriginally going to keep setting out of it with only a few examples of how new skills, feats what have you were used in setting. And then of course a small discourse on how to DM a Aerial/ Spacial setting.

 

[Sidran]

One last thing for you

Look up the Ship Construction rules in Seafarers Handbook it is alot like what you are describing about building up the vessel. by means of tables.

Something else it defines is ship qualities basically vehicle feats that effect the quality of the vessel

Example:

Built to last

The ship is designed to take more damage than many ships of its type making it harder to sink.

Benefits The Hulls hit points are increased by 5 per inch of the hulls thickness

I dont know maybe you could create a handful of these for Creation.

What ever else you don't skimp on work to get it done people will be able to tell if you rush through the writing of the book. Not that you are I am just saying if it requires more work to get it finished do the work.

And Blackjaw if you would post what you got here so we could run it through the mill that would be nice the website for the Cosmonomicon is a little confused at the moment.

 

[BlackJaw]

oops. not trying to be mean or anything, I just often come across as an a-hole (most indications are that I am an a-hole).

I have nothing againt you or most other people that post here.

When I saw your post before, where you asked if you could help, I was going to post that "we would be happy for you help" but I realized I couldn't come up with anything immediatly. Right now I'm trying to get the first full draft of our vessel construction rules down, and until I have that out for everyone to see, and therefore know what I'm trying to do with them, it would be hard to get help on them. I am my own worst enemy in that respect.
Example: "Reinforced hull" is a special enhancment that can be built into a vehicle. it increases the vehicles damage reduction, some akin to the "built to last" quality you have posted. You did not know this because I have not posted it. I have not posted it because I don't have it compltly written out yet. IE: It's my fualt you don't have this information but I am working on it now.

Also, we are currently trimming and fixing our combat rules, and adding or working on those while Barsoomcore does his job is not a good idea. once he is done, then they can be adjusted a bit etc.

I guess if you want to try and write out some PrCs without having the rest of the work to look at, you can feel free, but I'm not sure how well that will work. hopefully once we get more set down and edited we can start looking at where cool PrC ablities can take advantage of it all.

One of the things I am doing with this project is trying to make something that will work with the Starwars d20 and Dragonstar projects. I know a lot of people that do not like the Starwars space combat system, and I personaly feel that the Dragonstar system is not all that conducive to a dogfight. My concepts for working and writing everythign has been to include thigns that work for spelljammer pure fantasy space/air up through high-tech magic-science settings. If a D20 modern player wants to fight space shutles againts ufos, I hope this system will help them too. I am including spelljammer equipment, I even have rules for Giant Space Hamster power sources. I know the orginal crew of this project were going more fantasy and less tech, but I kinda feel that this is my baby now. I wouldn't take it all so personaly, but at one point, this project was almost shut down and if I hadn't taken it all on my shoulders then it would have been. When I looked at the documents left on the website back then, and what I could find on the message boards, it basicaly pointed to a document frame work that was 75% devoted to describing a planet. I found almost no combat rules and very little on how to build a ship. (I think most of it was on people's hard drives and in e-mails between them, but that didn't help me at all) Just about everything we are currently working on is brand new from then.

I hope to have only a small section on setting, with DM advice and the like, more or less as you said. I was also hoping not to have to write that part. I was going to make sure PrCs were included in this project because its just about expected that a new D&D or D20 anything have PrCs in it. Not that I agree with that concept, but that's the way it is.

Oh, and I'm Sorry. I'll try not to post so "defensivly/stupidly/etc."

 

[Sidran]

Ok so can I at times It isn't that you came off like an a-- hole its more of you, and I had a bad connection or something oh well move forward.

If you think of something I come on alot so just post it and I will see it