Most reasonable people understand that the phrase "most reasonable people" is code for "if you don't agree with me you're probably being unreasonable," which as you well know is itself unreasonable.
I didn't mention 4e, which I've neither read nor played. It's interesting you make that assumption, though. I mean, my response couldn't possibly have been motivated by the pure intellectual dishonesty that so frequently accompanies the "videogamey" claim, could it?
These later neutral or even positive uses of the term came about as a direct response to the initial use, which was negative. That's why my key qualifier was "in an obviously derogatory way." So I'm not referring to, say, you or Kamikaze Midget.
It doesn't bother me either except in the way that any intellectually dishonest argument bothers me. Just to make my own position clear, this is because I have a background in rhetoric and argumentation, not because I care a lick what someone else thinks about any edition of D&D. Happily, enough people have spoken up that by now "videogamey" has lost any self-evident critical value it may once have had. This thread is evidence of that.
If you're capable of talking specifics then talk specifics. No one will begrudge you that, since for many people the big issue with "videogamey" is that it's virtually meaningless precisely because it tends to float free of such specifics. People can discuss specifics with you, but discussion halts in the face of this nebulous concept we're calling "videogamey." In fact, the only real reason to use it at all is to lean on it apodictically for its lingering propaganda value.
No doubt. But like Umbran you're assuming that when someone says "X is videogamey"* they're simply stating an impression, which isn't the case. They're making an argument, and in the structure of that argument the idea of "videogamey" is always given weight one way or the other. Initially that weight was negative, but the argument tried to disguise the assumption on which this negativity was based by being enthymematic: "X is bad because it's videogamey." The unstated assumption here is that "anything that is videogamey is bad," and people have rightly taken issue with it.
No doubt you can tell from the sober way I've approached the issue that neither your "it's not worth getting any knickers in a twist" nor SHARK's "I don't get . . . worked up" apply here. Attributing such emotions to your opponent in an argument is also intellectually dishonest. It's a (rather transparent) way of discrediting them by showing them to be unreasonable and of uneven temper.
Greetings!
Well, Kishin, such being *condescending* was certainly not my intention. It is simply my observation with both the vast majority of people here and elsewhere that I have discussed this with.
In both contexts,
"Nah, John. I don't care for 4E. It seems too video-gamey*
Or--
"Yeah, John. 4E rocks, dude. It feels a bit video-gamey, too!"
In both such cases, the large majority of people easily surmised what the people were talking about. Occasionally, a brief clarification was needed, but not often. Then, recently, *here*--it's like all of a sudden, it's an entirely foreign concept, so prepostrously alien that some people can't imagine how the two could be compared, and saying that 4E is *video-gamey* is imprecise, and incomprehensible.
Thus, my honest *incomprehension* concerning some people's inability to comprehend how lots of other people--in my experience--could relate the two kinds of games apparently with ease, and very little friction or misunderstanding about what the person speaking meant--either in favor or in critique--of 4E as being or feeling *video-gamey*
All of which just speaks to my experience, and my bewilderment at some people's apoplexy over me using the comparison to explain what some of the critics have felt. *shrugs* I don't understand why several people get all twisted because many other people seeing connections and influences between 4E and video-games/mmo's.
Personally--I really *love* 3.5 D&D. I've been playing it for years and years, and have spent lots of money on it. I was originally quite hostile to the announcement of 4E. Since then, I have gradually become cautiously enthusiastic about playing/DMing with 4E.
*I* can see quite clearly, in my view, how 4E resembles video-games/mmo's. *I* can clearly see how some negative aspects/mechanics/elements in 4E are influenced by video-games.
*I* can also see how some different positive elements--and even some of the same *negative* ones--also have positive and strong attributes that make 4E excellent--and they have been influenced by video-games.
Hopefully, that clarifies some things.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
