Viking/Norse Mythology - It's been done but not well - what is missing?

[Ultramyth]

Though I'm aware of previous attempts at bringing Norse Mythology to life in role-playing, I've not seen it done well as of yet. I have my own theories on why this is, however, I'd like to hear what other gamers think should be included in a viking campaign that has been missing in the past.

Is it historical accuracy? Lack of detail? Norse mythology can be pretty vague. Is it a lack of background information?

 

[Wombat]

There are a lot of problems with trying to bring Norse mythology to life. The primary sources are the Elder and Prose Eddas (there are others, but they are less direct). The Prose Edda is a pretty straight read; the Elder Edda requires quite a bit more internal mental translation work. But if you read through these works you will find several odd and interesting points. First up, there are no stories that "star" any of the goddesses -- they are only secondary players. Given the number of artistic allusions to the goddesses, the number of suggestions of longer stories, and the number of shrines found, the assumption is that those stories were just never written down. Equally most of the stories of regarding Thor are comical (or at least semi-comical), yet again we know through artistic evidence, shrines, and other bits that he was considered not only a strong god, but also a serious and deeply beloved god (we know that he was considered the defender of marriages, for example, a very serious position, yet the only tales that talk about him and marriage are comical). Equally almost all the stories we have about the Aesir gods, very few of the Vanir gods, yet again archaeological evidence shows that the worship of the Vanir was still quite wide in the Viking era -- where did these stories go?

So, yes, recreating Norse mythology is, to say the least, a tricky topic. Tie to this the fact that the tales were only written down after Norway, Denmark, Iceland, and Sweden converted to Christianity, a lot of potential corruption of the sources creeps in.

Overall, trying to get the feel of old Norse mythology, the Elder Edda is the better of the two sources, but in the end you have to fill in a lot of blanks when dealing with the tales.

 

[Ultramyth]

There are a lot of problems with trying to bring Norse mythology to life. The primary sources are the Elder and Prose Eddas (there are others, but they are less direct). The Prose Edda is a pretty straight read; the Elder Edda requires quite a bit more internal mental translation work. But if you read through these works you will find several odd and interesting points. First up, there are no stories that "star" any of the goddesses -- they are only secondary players. Given the number of artistic allusions to the goddesses, the number of suggestions of longer stories, and the number of shrines found, the assumption is that those stories were just never written down. Equally most of the stories of regarding Thor are comical (or at least semi-comical), yet again we know through artistic evidence, shrines, and other bits that he was considered not only a strong god, but also a serious and deeply beloved god (we know that he was considered the defender of marriages, for example, a very serious position, yet the only tales that talk about him and marriage are comical). Equally almost all the stories we have about the Aesir gods, very few of the Vanir gods, yet again archaeological evidence shows that the worship of the Vanir was still quite wide in the Viking era -- where did these stories go?

So, yes, recreating Norse mythology is, to say the least, a tricky topic. Tie to this the fact that the tales were only written down after Norway, Denmark, Iceland, and Sweden converted to Christianity, a lot of potential corruption of the sources creeps in.

Overall, trying to get the feel of old Norse mythology, the Elder Edda is the better of the two sources, but in the end you have to fill in a lot of blanks when dealing with the tales.

Well, that raises some interesting issues, though not quite the ones I expected. I was refering bringing to life a fantasy setting based in the 'nine worlds', as opposed to a generic fantasy setting.

The issue of the Gods and Goddesses is certainly a topic I am familiar with, however, you are wrong on one count - Freja is at times the topic of stories, though she is the exception to the rule. You refer however to evidence of shrines to the goddesses, could you elaborate on this source, as I haven't heard much about it.

I was trying to decide whether or not to take the approach of presenting a 9th century europe from the Norse perspective as a basis for midgard, or an entirely different world not based on our own history.

I was also thinking of weather or not to use the core classes, or completely modified new ones, with perhaps the exception of the rogue and sorcerer, who are adaptable to just about any setting...

 

[talien]

Though I'm aware of previous attempts at bringing Norse Mythology to life in role-playing, I've not seen it done well as of yet.

Dunno if it will be considered "done well" but there's a Norse chapter in Frost & Fur, out now on bookshelves. Here's what it contains:

* Three new classes: Godi (pagan priest), vitki (runecaster), and voelva (shamaness)
* Five new prestige classes: Artificer, berserker, glimumann (Nordic wrestler), jomsviking (Norse mercenary), and leech (herb healer)
* Two skill clarifications
* One new armor, the byrnie
* Four kinds of shelter
* Eight new kinds of transportation
* 13 different weapons
* Eight new magic items
* Six new monsters, including: linnorm, draugr, haugbui, ketta, nykur, and trow
* 38 new feats, including galdralag (cursing), glimustaoa (rushing an opponent's weapon belt), stigandi (a special combat stance), strandhugg (the viking raid), and svinfylka (boar snout maneuver)
* Five new spells
* 60 runes for use with the vitki and skalds (bards) -- runecasting!
* 25 herbs for use with the leech (in a Norse campaign, there's no healing clerics, leeches are it)
* 38 deities for a godi to choose from

You can read more at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0972819754/michaeltrescaA/

 

[Waylander]

I was trying to decide whether or not to take the approach of presenting a 9th century europe from the Norse perspective as a basis for midgard, or an entirely different world not based on our own history.

This is a key decision that will dramatically affect the campaign setting.

If you choose the 9th century europe option, you will have a relatively standard low magic campaign but will have to accomodate all of the non-Norse religions, cultures in some way which might dilute what you are trying to achieve.

If you go for a pure Norse campaign, literally trying to bring the myths to life as a setting, then one of the problems will be having gods play an active part in the campaign, e.g. Thor will not be a distant god that is prayed to so much an active participant in the continuing war against the giants.

So I guess by definition it will either be a low-magic campaign in the first option or a high-fantasy campaign in the second option.

 

[Ultramyth]

Dunno if it will be considered "done well" but there's a Norse chapter in Frost & Fur, out now on bookshelves. Here's what it contains:

* Three new classes: Godi (pagan priest), vitki (runecaster), and voelva (shamaness)
* Five new prestige classes: Artificer, berserker, glimumann (Nordic wrestler), jomsviking (Norse mercenary), and leech (herb healer)
* Two skill clarifications
* One new armor, the byrnie
* Four kinds of shelter
* Eight new kinds of transportation
* 13 different weapons
* Eight new magic items
* Six new monsters, including: linnorm, draugr, haugbui, ketta, nykur, and trow
* 38 new feats, including galdralag (cursing), glimustaoa (rushing an opponent's weapon belt), stigandi (a special combat stance), strandhugg (the viking raid), and svinfylka (boar snout maneuver)
* Five new spells
* 60 runes for use with the vitki and skalds (bards) -- runecasting!
* 25 herbs for use with the leech (in a Norse campaign, there's no healing clerics, leeches are it)
* 38 deities for a godi to choose from

You can read more at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0972819754/michaeltrescaA/

That's interesting. I was going to do it like this:

• Drop all the classes except the Rogue and Sorcerer
• Introduce the godi, galdor, berserk, viking, hunter, skald and stav monk as core classes
• Add the Seidr Witch, Erilaz, volva and vardlokkur as prestige classes
• Remove all the races, and put in humans (possibly with subraces), dwarves (as they are in the eddas, turn to stone, etc), Elves (turn invisible, etc), half-dwarves, half-elves, half-fey, half-giant and half-troll.
• Revamp the skills and add some new feats.
• Completely replace the equipment and monitary system.
• Make some minor changes to the way magic works. I don't think runes are a necessary addtion to the campaign. Galdr is vocal and somatic rune magic, so it's sort of covered that way. Most of the spells still work too, but need adaptations.
• Completely new bestiary of 'wights', including some of the creatures you've mentioned, such as the Draug and draugr, but as well as vampires and werewolves, which are also mentioned in historical sorces (I live in scandinavia, and have access to alot more than most people). A new look on the traditional fantasy creatures that are spawned from norse mythology. Giants, dwarves, elves, trolls and gnomes especially.

This would be a total campaign setting, stand alone... I think it really needs to move away from the historical aspect of things now that I think of it. It's hard to shake the idea of europe being seen as a flat world, with nidavellir and svartalfheim beneath its surface, and jotunheim across its seas...

 

[Ultramyth]

This is a key decision that will dramatically affect the campaign setting.

If you choose the 9th century europe option, you will have a relatively standard low magic campaign but will have to accomodate all of the non-Norse religions, cultures in some way which might dilute what you are trying to achieve.

If you go for a pure Norse campaign, literally trying to bring the myths to life as a setting, then one of the problems will be having gods play an active part in the campaign, e.g. Thor will not be a distant god that is prayed to so much an active participant in the continuing war against the giants.

So I guess by definition it will either be a low-magic campaign in the first option or a high-fantasy campaign in the second option.

This is what I'm thinking now...

But to what extent. It would be easier to be able to include some historical settlements and a map of scandinavia at least... But you're right... I don't really want to tackle christianity and islam as well. Plus, that's sort of going against the licence rules.

Also, Talien has brought up some interesting points. Healing, and the traditional roles of the cleric is not the kind of power granted to the godi... actually, the godi is merely a sort of master of ceremonies... There are however, other ways to heal, but they would be very low level spells, like no higher than cure light. Wise women take care of healing, but it's a female only role.

That's also another thing, I'm planning to tackle the topic from a sexist viewpoint. Social roles are just too important.

 

[Yokiboy]

Though I'm aware of previous attempts at bringing Norse Mythology to life in role-playing, I've not seen it done well as of yet. I have my own theories on why this is, however, I'd like to hear what other gamers think should be included in a viking campaign that has been missing in the past.

Actually it has been done quite well if you know where to look. The foremost game on the subject is a Swedish game called "Viking", featuring a system sort of akin to the d6 system of West End Games fame. It is a very nice game, with a distinct Norse feel to it.

There's also the Land of Giants book, which introduces the lands of Thule to the Pendragon RPG. It's not a bad book, although I must admit I've never played Pendragon, but pilliged the book for ideas to incorporate into Viking.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Derulbaskul]

Ultramyth,

I've been working on my own Norse-flavoured campaign setting for some time centred around the theme of Ragnarok going "wrong". The world has largely been destroyed and is now a giant island-continent surrounded by some smaller islands that "sails" on an infinite river through the branches or roots of Yggdrasil.

The principal "bad guys" are the Islings: a race of humans who conquered much of the world before Ragnarok in the name of their sun goddess (who is Neutral Evil) and her tyrannic son (Lawful Evil).

Anyway, these are some of the rough ideas and it obviously still needs a lot of work. I would be very interested to hear more about the "crunch bits" you've mentioned in your posts above.

Cheers
D