Vile Darkness- Controversy and the past

[DaemonBolo]

I had read some of the arguments concerning the BOVD here at EnWorld. Unfortunately, I was out of town when the Tracy Hickman controversy hit, so I am unsure what happened in that case; however, I am against the concept of the BOVD. It's not that I care about the material. I leave that out of my game for one reason. I play DnD to adventure in a fantasy world where I do not have to deal with the 'hard' issues. In fact, I recently had to stop one of my players who decided that his CG character was justified in torturing prisoners. It is not something that I enjoy dealing with in my game.

I do have a slightly different take on the whole issue, or maybe not, but I have definite concerns about BOVD. Anyone who lived through the 80's suffered through the DnD controversy. At the time, the mainstream society labled it 'evil.' While it has gained more acceptance over the years, I am certain that most of you have dealt with the after effects even today. I still worry about how the hobby with affect my life. I have a set speech explaining the truth about the hobby to everyone new that I meet, just in case they grew up in an environment that was anti-DnD. I have to pray that people can keep and open mind.

The BOVD is set to reverse our hard fought struggle for legitimacy. While people may refer to White Wolf and other publishers that have paved the way for this book, that argument remains forever flawed. Dungeons and Dragons carries a connotation of being wrong in the public eye. Whereas White Wolf was able to sneak into the field because of TSR's legal successes, White Wolf never could have survived the 80's christian juggernaut.

BOVD will catch the eye of the christian hardliners' because it carried the Dungeons and Dragons label. I expect that we will see a huge public controvery about our hobby again. People EXPECT DnD to be like vile darkness. Now that the book will be on the shelves, they have a real target. The fact that PHB does not carry this material becomes irrelevant. Vile Darkness will affect our lives.

Some of you may say, "I do not care what they think!" That is not the point. The point is that some people have fought for years to gain respect and understanding and WOTC wants to throw it away. A third party could have published this book without the worries that the DnD brand name will generate. The issue is not about morality. The issue revolves around printing a book that will affect the lives of gamers whether they buy it or not.

Why do we need such rules in the first place? I always thought that is remains up to the GM to regulate such 'vileness' in a game. You need no formal rule structures for it. Vileness should remain private and separate for the public view because it will take away our gains in legitimacy.

If you think that I am wrong, then please speak up; however, I have one thought to leave with you. If it is not a concern, then while does the very public RPGA not allow evil aligned characters for public games and conventions. Why? Because in a public forum, evil acts in a tabletop game could be fuel for the media and the christian right. Now we have formal rules for it.

I hope that I am wrong, but I dread the coming storm.

Bolo's forever!

 

[Piratecat]

Because that fuss over AEG's Evil was such a big deal...?

I suspect that this will turn out to be a tempest in the proverbial tea pot. There's no sense in worrying about it until we see the book.

 

[Buttercup]

Sigh. Here we go again.

1. The book isn't published yet.
2. If you don't like it, don't buy it.
3. It's a resource for DMs not players.
4. It probably isn't that vile anyway.
5. Stop worrying so much about what other people think.
6. Game the way you like and let others do the same.
7. The nuts on the extreme right don't care about us anymore. They have bigger fish to fry.
8. You'll never change anyone's mind anyway, so this whole discussion/argument is pointless.

 

[DaemonBolo]

<<<Buttercup said: Sigh. Here we go again.

1. The book isn't published yet.
2. If you don't like it, don't buy it.
3. It's a resource for DMs not players.
4. It probably isn't that vile anyway.
5. Stop worrying so much about what other people think.
6. Game the way you like and let others do the same.
7. The nuts on the extreme right don't care about us anymore. They have bigger fish to fry.
8. You'll never change anyone's mind anyway, so this whole discussion/argument is pointless.>>>

A short, yet succint reply, although I disagree with you.

How many GM supplements do not get into the hands of the players?

Why do we need rules for such activity?

I will not by the book, but I will be forced to deal with the book.

No discussion is pointless. You can change a person's mind. The wealth of gaming possibilities today show that we have changed the mind of a lot of people in the public. The existence of White Wolf is proof of it. In fact, I changed the belief of my girlfriend's parents. Before they met me, only 'deranged' people played the game.

However, this book will make it that much harder to change the opinion of others. We did not need rules for this activity and it should have remained a private item for GM's.

Bolo's Forever!

 

[Aaron2]

Nothing could be better for D&D than for it to get controversial again. I say, "bring it on".

Unfortunately, BOVD ain't goin' to cut it.


Aaron

 

[Psion]

1. The book isn't published yet.
2. If you don't like it, don't buy it.
3. It's a resource for DMs not players.

None of which address his concerns.

4. It probably isn't that vile anyway.

Well, I don't think it will be that bad, but I already understand (from a preview on d20 weekly) that it has a necrophilia (sort of) related mechanic, which is the biggie that utterly disgusted me about dragon 300.

5. Stop worrying so much about what other people think.

If you didn't share the same trait, would you be posting this?

Personally I agree on this note. Further, it's not so much what people think... it's that I don't want what they think to be true.

7. The nuts on the extreme right don't care about us anymore. They have bigger fish to fry.

It's not the nuts on the extreme right that I am worried about. Perfectly reasonable folks are disgusted by entertainment with references to necrophilia... me included.

8. You'll never change anyone's mind anyway, so this whole discussion/argument is pointless.

One thing's for certain... if you don't let the people in charge know that you don't want WotC to go down the path of "black dog game factory", it's that much more likely to happen. Happily, I don't share your fatalism.

 

[Yonshalmnu]

I say this argument is moot until the book is out and the effects are seen. They are going to publish the book. The only thing that will might change is they shall add a disclaimer at the beginning defending the book and its purpose, if they haven't already. I don't need a book to make evil characters and scenarios myself, its just one more substitute for my own imagination. But one thing WoTC can not do is start regulating their work for political reasons. I say lets just simmer down and see what happens.

 

[maddman75]

/me gets out a dead horse and starts beating on it with his Mace of Irrelevency +4

Hey, this is fun!

PKitty has a good point - AEG's Evil is a book that I have and it is defeinatly much worse than the BoVD.

- It is partially meant for players (one section PC, one DM)
- The DM section is mostly guidelines for running a campaign of evil PCs.
- There are extensive rules for demon summoning, including benefits if you make human sacrifices.
- There are feats to represent such things as hostage taking
- There are also feats you can gain by selling your soul to a demon.
- Discussions of the pros and cons of ways of extracting information - bribery, blackmail, extortion, and torture.

I actually have this book. Its been out for ages. There was no hubbub, no protests. Those days are long behind us - the villains these days are video games and rap music.

The proof that no one gives a crap about our games anymore IMO is that WW just released a supplement where the PCs are actually demons. Haven't seen any protests, any news releases from concerned groups, or any of the other effects that we saw in the 80s.

 

[Yonshalmnu]

I too think D&D is very far below the holy roller radar. They're too busy with abortion and stem cells and what not right now to be cocerned about a few "geeks" pretending to be evil.

 

[alsih2o]

How many GM supplements do not get into the hands of the players?

Why do we need rules for such activity?

I will not by the book, but I will be forced to deal with the book.


However, this book will make it that much harder to change the opinion of others. We did not need rules for this activity and it should have remained a private item for GM's.

you are not born with a DM or player gene, saying the book is for one or the other only, or worrying that it might get "into players hands" is ridiculous. what if the 2nd player on the left in your game DM's on tuesday nights?

why do we need rules for beating in the heads of humanoids with iron sticks? asking why we "need" this information is asking why your town "needs" a slicky slide.

you will not be forced to deal with the book, you are volunteering.

the opinions of others are nothing. the net is full of necrobukakke and rap artists and performance artists outscored us in vile a long time ago.

relax, i am not sure where everyone gets the whole "80's fight" mentality from....was anyone here ever detained for playing d+d? assaulted? it was a controversy and it is over, we won.

civilr rights were fought over, music censorship was fought over, states rights were fought over....D+D was at best an argument.

i can't keep but thinking it must be the word vile, the core sourcebooks have zombies with rotting flesh on them, weapons designed for dismemberment, rending monsters and more.