Vitality Damage and Damage-based Special Attacks

[genshou]

Please note that I finally noticed the incoherent nature of a post above, and fixed it so it actually makes sense. I need to stop posting after midnight...

 

[AmorphousBlob]

Well, my recommendation is pretty simple: don't use VP/WP. In games like Star Wars, where the focus is on heroes, I think it's a great system because it makes it so that the characters can get lucky/unlucky, but still avoid those moments where its like "Aww nuts, now I'm poisoned by a single attack." However, in DnD and other HP systems, it just doesn't capture the gritty feel of it. I'd suggest finding another system.

 

[GlassJaw]

However, in DnD and other HP systems, it just doesn't capture the gritty feel of it. I'd suggest finding another system.

I feel quite the opposite actually. The fact that any attack can deliver a potentially deadly wound is what makes the VP/WP so gritty. It's great for high-action, low-magic settings. The traditional hp system completely removes physicality from combat IMO. You can never tell where your "luck" ends and your meat body begins.

I don't see the big issue with poison either. Sure, it's deadly but I don't think the mechanics need any drastic rewrites. I think it has a similar effect as with the hp system. You get poisoned and you take Con damage which also reduces your hp's. If your Con goes to 0, you die. Same deal in the VP/WP system. Con damage affects your WP's as well as your VP's. If your Con goes to 0, so do your WP's, and you die. I don't really see the issue.

Depending on the type of game you are running, poison will most likely be less common anyway.

 

[AmorphousBlob]

I feel quite the opposite actually. The fact that any attack can deliver a potentially deadly wound is what makes the VP/WP so gritty. It's great for high-action, low-magic settings. The traditional hp system completely removes physicality from combat IMO. You can never tell where your "luck" ends and your meat body begins.

I don't see the big issue with poison either. Sure, it's deadly but I don't think the mechanics need any drastic rewrites. I think it has a similar effect as with the hp system. You get poisoned and you take Con damage which also reduces your hp's. If your Con goes to 0, you die. Same deal in the VP/WP system. Con damage affects your WP's as well as your VP's. If your Con goes to 0, so do your WP's, and you die. I don't really see the issue.

Depending on the type of game you are running, poison will most likely be less common anyway.

The issue is that, unless you decide to rule differently, poison isn't a risk unless you take wound damage. That makes it so that poison has a significantly lessened effect, because in higher level combat (which is the most likely place to find poison, usually) you're less likely to be doing wound damage unless someone gets lucky and makes that 1-in-20 roll.

 

[GlassJaw]

The issue is that, unless you decide to rule differently, poison isn't a risk unless you take wound damage. That makes it so that poison has a significantly lessened effect, because in higher level combat (which is the most likely place to find poison, usually) you're less likely to be doing wound damage unless someone gets lucky and makes that 1-in-20 roll.

I'm not sure I really have a problem with that. If our hero is able to fend off attacks (VP), I don't see why he should get poisoned.

I also houserule that any damage taken by unaware combatants in the surprise round take WP damage. That makes assassins with poison and the like very deadly.

 

[genshou]

I'm not sure I really have a problem with that. If our hero is able to fend off attacks (VP), I don't see why he should get poisoned.

It does have its uses. I do like to emulate those moments when there's just the slightest scratch, and as a result the target suffers poison damage. Otherwise, there may as well not even be any poison damage on Colossal vermin.

I also houserule that any damage taken by unaware combatants in the surprise round take WP damage. That makes assassins with poison and the like very deadly.

That's too gritty even for me. It also makes combat a little less dependent on character abilities and more by who gets lucky enough to attack first/notice the other before combat. The "wizards who make up Wizards" have always warned against abilities which make kills too easy in one hit.

 

[genshou]

I feel quite the opposite actually. The fact that any attack can deliver a potentially deadly wound is what makes the VP/WP so gritty. It's great for high-action, low-magic settings. The traditional hp system completely removes physicality from combat IMO. You can never tell where your "luck" ends and your meat body begins.

[...]

Depending on the type of game you are running, poison will most likely be less common anyway.

I actually use the vitality/wound system in Pledge of Tyranny, which is a Forgotten Realms campaign. It adds to the heroic, swashbuckling feel of combat, and also places emphasis on the fact that characters in light or no armor are in serious danger of being killed at any time, whereas someone with +5 full plate is impervious to up to 13 wound damage, more than most melee and ranged attacks can muster. It also helps against Colossal creatures' natural weapons.

The prevalence of magic in the campaign does make alterations to how the rules system functions in some respects, which is why questions like this need to be addressed when a vp/wp system is used outside of its native environment.

 

[GlassJaw]

That's too gritty even for me. It also makes combat a little less dependent on character abilities and more by who gets lucky enough to attack first/notice the other before combat.

You say that like it's a bad thing. The "damage to WP's in the surprise round", coupled with the VP/WP system, is one of my favorite rules for establishing a gritty feel. The fact the system itself puts a higher emphasis on tactics and stealth lends itself to a substantially different style of play. Just with this rule, you now have to decide as a player if wearing heavy armor is worth the penality to your hide and move silently skills as well as your speed. I like the fact that a single rule can indirectly affect many other aspects of gameplay.

I actually use the vitality/wound system in Pledge of Tyranny, which is a Forgotten Realms campaign. It adds to the heroic, swashbuckling feel of combat, and also places emphasis on the fact that characters in light or no armor are in serious danger of being killed at any time, whereas someone with +5 full plate is impervious to up to 13 wound damage

Hmm, now I'm a little confused. The example you cited is exactly what I wouldn't use the VP/WP system in a traditional fantasy setting. I want less emphasis put on armor in a low-magic, gritty setting, not more.

Perhaps we both like the VP/WP system, but for significantly different reasons.

 

[genshou]

Yeah, well with a +5 weapon and a Belt of Giant Strength +6, it's a lot easier to overcome that DR. There's also the ridiculously high damage output of creatures such as dragons.

I used the vp/wp system in this campaign because that's what the player wanted. I wouldn't normally in a high-magic game. As for surprise round damage... it can be useful to have armor in order to survive those attacks, but if your character/NPC foe has sneak attack and a high Initiative, suddenly they're king of the moment during the first round, every combat. I would definitely use the "first round is always a surprise round" variant when using your idea.

 

[genshou]

Hmm, now I'm a little confused. The example you cited is exactly what I wouldn't use the VP/WP system in a traditional fantasy setting. I want less emphasis put on armor in a low-magic, gritty setting, not more.

Perhaps we both like the VP/WP system, but for significantly different reasons.

I wouldn't say we like it for different reasons. We just have different experiences on how the rules impact the gameplay. My players know that to not wear armor in a vp/wp system leads to higher PC fatality, so they wear the heaviest armor they can without suffering major penalties beyond those that always apply for that armor. When they suffer a critical hit, they know those points in armor DR will often save them from being knocked-out at the end of the round, or even negate the damage entirely. In standard D&D, wearing a heavier armor only increases the AC bonus, which is always helpful... but against many Colossal foes with their insanely high attack bonuses...