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<blockquote data-quote="James McMurray" data-source="post: 1375723" data-attributes="member: 743"><p>Huh? MAny of those critters were CR 20. And oddly enough, CR 18 is standard fare for ECL 18 characters.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Stunning Fist attack also deals damage. It isn't something that you give up anything to do, its an added frill. Having a 50% chance to gaurantee your foe's death is pretty nice IMO.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nope, you aren't helpless, but you'll drop whatever you're holding, you won't be acting, your foes will have a better time hitting you, and without some sort of miracle or lots of backup you'll be dead. I think you may be missing the fact that aStunning Fist attack also deals damage. You keep saying that if they make the save you're useless, but you did do damage, which is exactly what would have happened if you hadn't attempted a stunning fist attack.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So you're saying that grapple is better than stunning fist against wizards, but that this character could get pinned by a wizard? I'm confused.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nobody is saying to base the character around it. Its 3 feats used out of 20.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Dear god no! Don't dilute your monk levels, at least not with wizard levels. If Enlarge and Mage Armor are important, spend a few ranks in Use Magic Device, or better yet ask your wizard friend to spend two of his 9 first level slots to cast them on you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So you can grapple and trip a mage. What are you going to do to that Balor or Dragon?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Improved Grapple is not going to let you beat an equal levelled fighter in a grapple, and disarm will not help either. He will have a higher BABA and strength and is likely to have Imp. Grapple and Disarm himself. And for disarm, he'll probably also have a locking gauntlet, for +10 to the opposed roll. And if your foe isn't medium sized, you're in even worse shape when trying to grapple or disarm.</p><p></p><p>I do agree that strength is important, but he doesn't have the rolls to have all good stats (which an Exalted Monk needs). He has to suffer somewhere.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="James McMurray, post: 1375723, member: 743"] Huh? MAny of those critters were CR 20. And oddly enough, CR 18 is standard fare for ECL 18 characters. The Stunning Fist attack also deals damage. It isn't something that you give up anything to do, its an added frill. Having a 50% chance to gaurantee your foe's death is pretty nice IMO. Nope, you aren't helpless, but you'll drop whatever you're holding, you won't be acting, your foes will have a better time hitting you, and without some sort of miracle or lots of backup you'll be dead. I think you may be missing the fact that aStunning Fist attack also deals damage. You keep saying that if they make the save you're useless, but you did do damage, which is exactly what would have happened if you hadn't attempted a stunning fist attack. So you're saying that grapple is better than stunning fist against wizards, but that this character could get pinned by a wizard? I'm confused. Nobody is saying to base the character around it. Its 3 feats used out of 20. Dear god no! Don't dilute your monk levels, at least not with wizard levels. If Enlarge and Mage Armor are important, spend a few ranks in Use Magic Device, or better yet ask your wizard friend to spend two of his 9 first level slots to cast them on you. So you can grapple and trip a mage. What are you going to do to that Balor or Dragon? Improved Grapple is not going to let you beat an equal levelled fighter in a grapple, and disarm will not help either. He will have a higher BABA and strength and is likely to have Imp. Grapple and Disarm himself. And for disarm, he'll probably also have a locking gauntlet, for +10 to the opposed roll. And if your foe isn't medium sized, you're in even worse shape when trying to grapple or disarm. I do agree that strength is important, but he doesn't have the rolls to have all good stats (which an Exalted Monk needs). He has to suffer somewhere. [/QUOTE]
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