VoP/Monk build for review

[Artoomis]

I just built a Monk/Vow of Poverty character and here it is, so that it can be fairly compared with other characters of equal level. I present it at 18th level, since that's the level of our group, so I could also compare with other current characters.

I did this to help put the more general thread on this topic in better perspective with an actual example.

I find, in general, it is very strong on defense and very weak in offense. This is almost inevitable - the extra exalted feats available are too small in number to avoid taking quite a few "Vow of ..." feats, which are defense-heavy feats.

You need to compare it to fully equipped 18th level characters. I leave you to do that if you desire.

We started with a set of 18/14/14/14/10/8 scores to be placed where you want.

I put the 18 in Wis, the 10 in Int and the 8 in Str.

Current Stats:

STR 8
DEX 21
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 24
CHA 15

AC 47 (+12 exalted, +4 natural, +5 deflection, +3 monk, +7 WIS, +6 DEX)
Touch AC 31
Incorporeal Touch AC: 31
AC vs. Brilliant Energy Weapons: 47

REF +19
WILL + 20
FORT: +18

SR 32
DR 5/evil and magic

Offense Bonuses: +4 magic. lawful, good, adamantine
Defense Bonuses (other than AC): +2 vs. Enchantments. +4 vs. non-damaging spells. +4 vs. Poison and Drugs. +4 vs, Charms and Phantasms. Weapons that strike him must make a Fort save vs. DC 22 or be shattered with no damage to him. Immune to hot/cold: -50 to +140 degrees F. Immune to natural diseases. Improved Evasion. Immune to all poisons.

Other: Constant Calm Emotions 20' radius DC21. Slow Fall 90' no damage if within arm's reach of a wall. Can heal 16 hit points per day. Quivering Palm DC 27 (can't use it, though, because of Vow of Peace). Speak with any living creature. Dimension Door 1/day at 9th level. No need for food,water or air to breathe. True Seeing. Freedom of Movement.

I think that's about it. I didn't list all his feats, and he gets one or two other relatively minor things like better diplomacy checks and things.

I haven't played him yet, but he looks playable, though not really on offense much.

 

[DM_Matt]

Well, my group's minmaxer (Enw: Elric) plays a VoP monk, so I have some experience with this.

1) As a monk, when it comes down to it the primary thing you do is do damage and enhance that with special moves. Strength cannot be your dump stat if you want to accomplish that much. You have to prioritize it over Con, and over Dex, too. ONLY Wis is arguably more important. Certainly over Int and Cha. Dump Cha.

2) List feats. Assuming access to the Complete Warrior and/or Oriental Adventures, you can be ABOUT your moves, which come from feats.

I suggest for your feats:
Exalted Bonus: Touch of Golden Ice, Fist of the Heavens, Sanctified Strike, Holy Key Strike, Nymph's Kiss, assorted prereqs and vows (I don't have the book). Do you need Vow of PEace for RP reasons? Otherwise I don't see the point, esp since you have a really nice Quivering Palm.

Regular Feats (12 (7level+1human+3Mbonus+1Unarmed Strike)) Sacred Vow, VoP, Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Dodge, Defensive Throw, Expert Tactician, Pain Touch.

There is so much synergy in those feats its sickening.

Whenever you attack, or whenever they miss you (defensive throw), or whenever they lose thier dex bonus (e.t.), or when they get up from prone, or otherwise provoke an AOO, you improved trip them, use the extra attack to hit them with a stunning fist improved by pain touch and fist of the heavens so that they are messed up for three rounds, and then if you havent used your et you get another attack from that. Now when they get up from prone after being tripped or defensive thrown, they provoke an AOO and trigger this whole bit again.

You won't be able to do this to things larger than large -- you wont be strong enough -- but you will quite literally mop the floor with another melee fighter.

 

[Artoomis]

Here are my feat selections. I am allowed 3.5 feats only, so Complete Warrior is available, where there could be something I've missed.

My concept is to stress defense over offense, since that works so well, and since I practically have to take the Vow of Nonviolence and the Vow of Peace simply to have enough exalted feats to fill the bonus exalted feat slots.

That said:

1st level:
Regular: Sacred Vow (prereq for VoP and +2 diplomacy)
Human Bonus: Vow of Poverty (multiple benefits that offset owning no equipment)
Exalted Bonus: Holy Subdual (for later - so that bonus damage will be subdual)
Monk: Improved Grapple (mostly for the +4 bonus to make up for low strength)

2nd Level:
Exalted Bonus: Nimbus of Light (some light at will, some very useful skill bonus)
Monk: Deflect Arrows (mostly for coolness factor, and because Combat Reflexes didn't fit my concept very well)

3rd Level:
Regular: Dodge (defense bonus and pre-req for Spring Attack)

4th Level
Exalted Bonus: Stigmata (Take Con damage to heal others)

5th Level:
None

6th Level:
Regular: Mobility (pre-req for Spring Attack)
Exalted Bonus: Vow of Nonviolence
Monk: Improved Disarm (He's going to disarm routinely with this +4 bonus offsetting his light weapon of "unarmed")

7th Level:
None

8th Level:
Exalted Bonus: Vow of Peace (weapons may break when they hit him - Fort save DC22 at 18th level)

9th Level:
Regular: Spring Attack (What fun! Streak on in, disarm, and streak back out.) Defensive feats from Complete Warrior might better than this chain of feats.)

10th Level:
Exalted Bonus: Vow of Abstinence (Fort bonus)

11th level:
None

12th level :
Regular: Great Fortitude (Fort save was falling behind)
Exalted Bonus: Vow of Chastity (Some Will bonus)

13th level:
None

14th level:
Exalted Bonus: Exalted Spell Resistance (+4 SR - very nice!)

15th level:
Regular (Though this is an exalted feat - probably should take a general feat from Complete Warrior here and take this at 16th): Intuitive Attack (use Wis for Attack bonus)

16th level:
Exalted Bonus: Sanctify Ki Strike (small amount of extra damage)

17th level:
None

18th level:
Regular: Snatch Arrows (Mostly for coolness factor)
Exalted Bonus:Holy Ki Strike (extra damage vs. evil)

19th level:
None

20th level
Exalted Bonus: Servant of the Heavens (just to fill the last bonus slot worth something)

Note: I did not consider Nymph's Kiss as viable for our campaign. It would be now,. but this build is actually for a later campaign where it is unlikely that we'd have any relationship with a "good fey."

I did not list them before since I was not really asking for help with this build so much as putting the actual end result out there for comparison to other 18th level characters to check and balance the power level.

That said, if anyone has suggestions for other 3.5 feats to replace some regular feats, have at it!! Especially if from Ebarron (unpublished until July) or from Complete Warrior.

I won't be playing the final version of this until July with a new Ebarron campaign. Meantime I may play-test an 18th-20th level version in our current campaign, which has mostly degenerated into module romps (still lots of fun, but it has lost most of its "campaign" flavor).

 

[0-hr]

Can't trip someone getting up from prone because, well, they are prone already. Even if you could "re-prone" or "doulbe-prone" them, they can just finish their standing up after the AoO (unless they are stunned or such).

Sorry for the side track - I just need to interject that every time I see someone say how cool it is to trip a prone person...

 

[DM_Matt]

Well, hmmm...There is not much that can be optimized on an 18th level monk with 8 str and Vows of Being An Inanimate Object.

You definately dont need to take those vows to fill your feats. In fact, I am pretty sure that worse comes to worse you dont have to take the feats, altohugh you cant take them later. You need to fill 8 bonus feats, so Touch of Golden Ice, Fist of the Heavens, Sanctified Strike, Holy Key Strike, Nymph's Kiss, Exalter SR, Numbus of Light, Servant of the Heavens. There, no additional vows, altouhgh some arent that bad.

IMHO, to be this defensive I not fair to your party. A smart bad guy will simply ignore you beucase you're just about harmless. Lots of stuff cannot be disarmed or uses much larger weapons. In fact, until 15th when you got Inuitive attack, you would have been just about entirely unable to do anything to anyone, and its almost inconceivable that you would have survived. you defense might be nice for you, but all that means is that the bad guys will kill your friends while you jump around accomplishing nothing, then either go after you of just not bother.


If this is a very combat-light campaign, go for it. Otherwise, I don't think that this build is all that playable.

 

[James McMurray]

Whatever you do, do not take Vow of Peace. It makes it incredibly difficult for you to add to the party in combat. And when you do manage to knock someone out, you'll have to take them prisoner. Before you know it you'll be too busy watching over prisoners to move forward on your current mission.

I would drop Holy Subdual, Vo of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace for:

Intuitive Attack (get something else at 15th level, such as Expert Tactician)
Touch of Golden Ice: Every attack against evil has a 5% chance of dealing some ability damage
Fist of the Heavens: +2 to stunning Fist DC is nice

 

[DM_Matt]

Fist of the Heavens: +2 to stunning Fist DC is nice

It also grants another round of stunning! (IIRC)

Then again, it doesnt look like his has Stunning Fist either.


Good point about the need to take prisoners. Now I need to revise my assessment of this character. He might not just be not useful, but of negative utility to the party. If the others are not exalted, then he's almost definately more trouble to his companions than he's worth.

 

[Artoomis]

Hmmm...

Good ideas. I admit the Vow of Nonviolence and the Vow of Peace are very difficult to play.

I might go the other way - I have to look at it. Thanks, James.

 

[htetickrt]

Whatever you do, do not take Vow of Peace. It makes it incredibly difficult for you to add to the party in combat. And when you do manage to knock someone out, you'll have to take them prisoner. Before you know it you'll be too busy watching over prisoners to move forward on your current mission.

While I agree with James that the Vow of Peace makes things difficult, such a character can still have a role (though I'd be sure to take stunning attack to accomplish it). In particular, he can be really good against spellcasters. Fast movement and tumbling gets him to his foe quickly. SR, high saves, a great touch AC, true seeing, and freedom of movement mean that he is difficult to fool or stop via magic. Even just disrupting spells can be hugely beneficial for the group, and this type of monk is difficult for the mage to avoid.

Plus, all the big melee types that will eventually just avoid the monk might still waste a round on him, which could also sway the battle's outcome.

I'm not saying this means the peaceful monk is hugely fun, but if you're going for a particular character and your party is amenable, I don't think it's actually a negative. Of course, so far I've only tried it out as an NPC, and the rest of the group is only accepting him on a trial basis. I'd offer a more concrete example, but that part of my story hour won't be up for a while yet.

 

[Artoomis]

My biggest issue with Vow of Peace is not the taking of prisoners; I view that as a challenge to be overcome.

My issue is with the constant Calm Emotions. While excellent for the character, it could seriously interfere with what the other players want to do with their characters.

Still, I think I'll have two version worked up and discuss it with our group. Both versions will have 8 STR, though, as I don't need to worry about attack bonus (using WIS instead) or weight carrying. The damage penalty is not very hogh, and offset by special damage bonuses.