VoP/Monk build for review

[Artoomis]

I may be wrong, but I thought that by this time the monk's ki-strike: adamantine would ignore all but the highest weapon hardnesses, making the sunder route potential useful. With the CW eagle claw attack (add wisdom bonus to sunder damage), your monk could shatter many weapons with a full attack.

As for the Vow of Peace build, my own such monk deals with the aura by using his speed. He stays 20+' back normally, then zips forward to engage if his aid is required. It is sometimes a pain, but the amusement of making the BBEG scratch its head in confusion is worth it to me.

I didn't know about the Eagle Claw Attack. If it's in Complete Warrior, it's allowed, and I'm sure I qualify. Does it ONLY add to Sunder damage? Even so, an extra +7 to Sunder - wow!

Still, I might be better off simply taking the weapon away. It's no easier or harder, and I won't get in trouble with the rest of the group for destroying the treasure - though a VoP character cares not about treasure.

So many decisions!

 

[htetickrt]

I didn't know about the Eagle Claw Attack. If it's in Complete Warrior, it's allowed, and I'm sure I qualify. Does it ONLY add to Sunder damage? Even so, an extra +7 to Sunder - wow!

Yup, it requires improved sunder and works when striking any object. Not necessarily useful at all times, but the coolness factor of shattering a wall of stone or even iron in a single round might make up for it.

 

[Artoomis]

Yup, it requires improved sunder and works when striking any object. Not necessarily useful at all times, but the coolness factor of shattering a wall of stone or even iron in a single round might make up for it.

Improved Natrural Attack gives me an extra d8 in all circumstances. It's an overall better selection, I think.

Is there a CW feat for even more advanced disarming, like for sunder? If so, I might take that.

 

[James McMurray]

Seems like he should be on the back lines, sniping opponents while running at his insane monk speed, as his Str is rather weak. I wouldn't take feats to boost stunning unless you want that to be your schtick, as it's rather weak against the typical baddies you may face. Think about your stun DC and the normal modifier for the critters you run into.

This is a fairly common misconception. Observe:

His stunning fist DC is 30, and it causes two rounds of stun.

Standard foes around CR 18:

Balor (CR 20): +22 fort. save
MArilith (CR 17): +19 fort. save
Pit Fiend (CR 20): +19 fort. save
Mature Adult Red Dragon (CR 18): +20 fort. save
Wizard 18 (with +5 resistance and con 20): +16 fort. save
Fighter 18 (with +5 resistance and con 24): +23 fort. save
Storm Giant Fighter 5: +24 fort. save

Without those feats his stunning fist will be fairly useless. But with them he has a decent chance of stunning any foe that is around his CR and isn't immune to stunning or critical hits.

to what avail? The baddie is stunned. That's it.

Have you ever been in a combat where you never got to act because you kept getting stunned? It ain't pretty. If yo revent the enemy spellcaster from tossing out a horrid wilting, a Weird, gating in a Balor, or some other equally nasty maneuver, its well worth the effort. If you stop the enemy Weapon Master from Ki Criticalling your cleric twice (and making him drop his scythe as well), its well worth the effort.

 

[MarauderX]

This is a fairly common misconception. Observe:

His stunning fist DC is 30, and it causes two rounds of stun.

Standard foes around CR 18:

Balor (CR 20): +22 fort. save
MArilith (CR 17): +19 fort. save
Pit Fiend (CR 20): +19 fort. save
Mature Adult Red Dragon (CR 18): +20 fort. save
Wizard 18 (with +5 resistance and con 20): +16 fort. save
Fighter 18 (with +5 resistance and con 24): +23 fort. save
Storm Giant Fighter 5: +24 fort. save

Without those feats his stunning fist will be fairly useless. But with them he has a decent chance of stunning any foe that is around his CR and isn't immune to stunning or critical hits.

Precisely. And those are just the 18th level critters, not something that would go against an 18th level party. The worst is for the Marilith & Pit Fiend, and they only need to roll an >11< to avoid the effects. May as well cast hold person on them, it will do just as well. Stunned is just that - it doesn't mean you are helpless or unaware of what's around you. Being out for 2 rounds in an epic fight is pretty profound, yes, but take a look at the creatures you are fighting - if they roll better than average, you become useless. Not so good IMO, I would rather build a monk that was absolutely going to be good at something, not dead weight that the cleric has to spend spells to heal up again.

Have you ever been in a combat where you never got to act because you kept getting stunned? It ain't pretty. If yo revent the enemy spellcaster from tossing out a horrid wilting, a Weird, gating in a Balor, or some other equally nasty maneuver, its well worth the effort. If you stop the enemy Weapon Master from Ki Criticalling your cleric twice (and making him drop his scythe as well), its well worth the effort.

Grapple. Any mage that has lost initiative to a fast moving monk that grapples ends up tied like a pretzel. It will do better over time, and a monk can deal out lethal damage while pinning that mage. With the weak Str, the wizard may just pin the monk instead. I'm not saying don't get the stun; the DC is too weak to build a whole character around IMO. Any other mage or cleric will give a CR~18 critter shivers with the chances of making the save vs. a monk stunning her.

I would recommend Great Throw (great with combat reflexes and getting AoOs on opponents standing from prone) along with a level or three of wizard so you can cast Enlarge and Mage Armor. I would sink half of the bonuses that went to Dex into Str (make them about even) then take Grappling Block if you want to disarm automatically, as your AC will be a bit lower. But your utility with a higher Str will make you more valuable as you will not only be tripping and grappling the feeble mage, you can hold your own with the muscle giants too. Being able to grapple, throw, or otherwise take on the BBEG fighter type will earn you the MVP while your comrades can deal with the rest. After all, almost any character class can out-grapple a wizard, not everyone else can tangle up a level 20+ fighter and not die after a dozen rounds.

 

[Artoomis]

The worst is for the Marilith & Pit Fiend, and they only need to roll an >11< to avoid the effects. ...

That's a 50% chance. Pretty good, in my opnion, considering you STILL do damage.

May as well cast hold person on them, it will do just as well.

No - DC is much lower. (10 + Spell Level + Wisdom Modifer). Maybe 20 in this case.

...Grapple. Any mage that has lost initiative to a fast moving monk that grapples ends up tied like a pretzel. It will do better over time, and a monk can deal out lethal damage while pinning that mage. With the weak Str, the wizard may just pin the monk instead...

Right - Grapple is extremely sub-optimal for this monk. On the other hand, wizards have lousy Fort saves, making Stuuning Fist an excellent choice. They also have loust attack bonuses, making Disarm an excellent choice.

I'm not saying don't get the stun; the DC is too weak to build a whole character around IMO. Any other mage or cleric will give a CR~18 critter shivers with the chances of making the save vs. a monk stunning her.

Not unless they really optimize - a 9th level spell with 24 wisdom is only DC 26, still less than the Stun.

I would recommend Great Throw (great with combat reflexes and getting AoOs on opponents standing from prone) along with a level or three of wizard so you can cast Enlarge and Mage Armor. I would sink half of the bonuses that went to Dex into Str (make them about even) then take Grappling Block if you want to disarm automatically, as your AC will be a bit lower. But your utility with a higher Str will make you more valuable as you will not only be tripping and grappling the feeble mage, you can hold your own with the muscle giants too. Being able to grapple, throw, or otherwise take on the BBEG fighter type will earn you the MVP while your comrades can deal with the rest. After all, almost any character class can out-grapple a wizard, not everyone else can tangle up a level 20+ fighter and not die after a dozen rounds.

No mage levels. Absolutely not. Not in my concpet for thsi character.

Grappling is ALWAYS sub-optimal for a monk due to the opposed Grapple check using STR modifers. Too many baddies have high STR.

What is "Grappling Bock" and how does that make disarm automatic??

 

[James McMurray]

Precisely. And those are just the 18th level critters, not something that would go against an 18th level party.

Huh? MAny of those critters were CR 20. And oddly enough, CR 18 is standard fare for ECL 18 characters.

The worst is for the Marilith & Pit Fiend, and they only need to roll an >11< to avoid the effects. May as well cast hold person on them, it will do just as well.

The Stunning Fist attack also deals damage. It isn't something that you give up anything to do, its an added frill. Having a 50% chance to gaurantee your foe's death is pretty nice IMO.

Stunned is just that - it doesn't mean you are helpless or unaware of what's around you. Being out for 2 rounds in an epic fight is pretty profound, yes, but take a look at the creatures you are fighting - if they roll better than average, you become useless.

Nope, you aren't helpless, but you'll drop whatever you're holding, you won't be acting, your foes will have a better time hitting you, and without some sort of miracle or lots of backup you'll be dead. I think you may be missing the fact that aStunning Fist attack also deals damage. You keep saying that if they make the save you're useless, but you did do damage, which is exactly what would have happened if you hadn't attempted a stunning fist attack.

Grapple. Any mage that has lost initiative to a fast moving monk that grapples ends up tied like a pretzel. It will do better over time, and a monk can deal out lethal damage while pinning that mage. With the weak Str, the wizard may just pin the monk instead.

So you're saying that grapple is better than stunning fist against wizards, but that this character could get pinned by a wizard? I'm confused.

I'm not saying don't get the stun; the DC is too weak to build a whole character around IMO. Any other mage or cleric will give a CR~18 critter shivers with the chances of making the save vs. a monk stunning her.

Nobody is saying to base the character around it. Its 3 feats used out of 20.

I would recommend Great Throw (great with combat reflexes and getting AoOs on opponents standing from prone) along with a level or three of wizard so you can cast Enlarge and Mage Armor.

Dear god no! Don't dilute your monk levels, at least not with wizard levels. If Enlarge and Mage Armor are important, spend a few ranks in Use Magic Device, or better yet ask your wizard friend to spend two of his 9 first level slots to cast them on you.

I would sink half of the bonuses that went to Dex into Str (make them about even) then take Grappling Block if you want to disarm automatically, as your AC will be a bit lower. But your utility with a higher Str will make you more valuable as you will not only be tripping and grappling the feeble mage,

So you can grapple and trip a mage. What are you going to do to that Balor or Dragon?

you can hold your own with the muscle giants too. Being able to grapple, throw, or otherwise take on the BBEG fighter type will earn you the MVP while your comrades can deal with the rest. After all, almost any character class can out-grapple a wizard, not everyone else can tangle up a level 20+ fighter and not die after a dozen rounds.

Improved Grapple is not going to let you beat an equal levelled fighter in a grapple, and disarm will not help either. He will have a higher BABA and strength and is likely to have Imp. Grapple and Disarm himself. And for disarm, he'll probably also have a locking gauntlet, for +10 to the opposed roll. And if your foe isn't medium sized, you're in even worse shape when trying to grapple or disarm.

I do agree that strength is important, but he doesn't have the rolls to have all good stats (which an Exalted Monk needs). He has to suffer somewhere.

 

[Elric]

Grappling Block- once a round when you would be hit by a melee weapon, make an attack roll (counts as an AoO)- if you beat their attack roll against you, you take their weapon. So, if you can beat their attack roll, you've got their weapon. Hope this makes things more clear.

 

[Artoomis]

Grappling Block- once a round when you would be hit by a melee weapon, make an attack roll (counts as an AoO)- if you beat their attack roll against you, you take their weapon. So, if you can beat their attack roll, you've got their weapon. Hope this makes things more clear.

My goodness! That's amazing. In Complete Warrior, is it?

 

[Elric]

Oh, sorry, Grappling Block isn't in the complete warrior. It is only in 3.0 OA. Since Defensive Throw is in complete warrior and Defensive Throw is better for a trip character than Grappling Block is for a disarm character, I don't think it was left out for power reasons. Think about grappling block for a second. It is a really cool feat, but what do you have to roll to hit yourself? A 22. If someone else hits your AC, they rolled 46 or higher, so you are not going to win the opposed attack roll.

Still, one time my character was hit by a horned devil's spiked chain, and I came within 1 point of taking his chain... by rolling a 19. I changed the character to be more focused on trips after that. But I really wanted to play long enough to have Grappling Block work once.