Vorpal Crits

[Hypersmurf]

Damge roll:
Roll the damage indicated in the power description.
If you’re using a weapon for the attack, the damage is
some multiple of your weapon damage dice.

The vorpal bonus is not strictly speaking, part of the damage roll that is counted when a critical hit triggers. So when you maximize, it's clearly without the vorpal, no matter what camp you are in about rolling more [w] after.

How does "add the additional result to the damage total" differ from, say, "your attacks deal extra damage"?

Sneak Attack doesn't reference the damage roll, merely says the attack deals extra damage. The definition of Damage Roll doesn't reference sneak attack, merely "some multiple of your weapon damage dice".

And yet Sneak Attack is included in "the maximum damage you can roll with your attack" when calculating a critical. If "your attacks deal extra damage" is included in the calculation, why not "add the additional result to the damage total"? Both figure in to the damage you can roll with your attack. Neither are directly the result of a critical.

-Hyp.

 

[DLichen]

Because sneak attack damage gets dealt no matter what your dice comes up as.

Vorpal only triggers when you roll dice well, and since critical hits is what caused you to roll well, it could fall under Extra Damage since it's partly triggered off the critical hit itself, since it would only come up due to the crit's effects, in this case maxed damage.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Vorpal only triggers when you roll dice well, and since critical hits is what caused you to roll well, it could fall under Extra Damage since it's partly triggered off the critical hit itself, since it would only come up due to the crit's effects, in this case maxed damage.

The crit's effect is to deal the maximum damage you could have rolled.

If you deal 2d8 damage, +1d6 on a critical, then the maximum you could have rolled without a critical is 16. It's impossible for you to roll 22 without a critical, so the critical takes the basic maximum (16), and then adds the crit-only effect.

If you use a Vorpal Weapon, then the maximum you could have rolled without a critical is infinite. Thus, infinite damage is not crit-dependent, and it's the maximum value you use before you add the 6d12.

The critical hit didn't cause me to roll well. The critical allowed me to simply deal the maximum damage I would deal if I had rolled well.

The critical calculation doesn't require assuming that you've just rolled infinite 8s. It simply takes the value you could have achieved, given that it's possible to roll infinite 8s.

Did you see the analogy I posted earlier, with the fictitious "Reversal of Catastrophe" power? The critical doesn't assume I rolled the highest possible on the die. It doesn't assume I rolled a 1. It merely takes the maximum damage that attack could deal if it were not a critical.

It happens that, in this case, the maximum damage that attack could deal occurs if the attacker rolls a 1 on the d8. But the critical doesn't require rolling a 1 on the d8; it merely deals the maximum damage that the non-crit-rolling attacker could deal, which happens to be the damage he'd get by rolling a 1.

-Hyp.

 

[DLichen]

The damage roll rules says only weapon die + bonuses

The vorpal bonus doesn't get added until you roll the die. You never roll the die - ergo, you can't add vorpal die.

You are using the a different definition of maximum damage your attack can do.

The flow goes:

1. Hit, rolled a 20
2. Damage roll step - [w] + bonuses - max w without rolling
3. Max damage is w+bonuses
4. Vorpal - did I roll dice? No, no extra vorpal die
5. w+bonuses + 6d12 + other crit die

The vorpal die simply don't exist when you calculate the damage roll.

EDIT: My actual rules position is much weaker in this one as seen by the fact that I used nonexistent timing rules, so I won't argue anymore since Smurph presents a raw interpretation that could work depending on the definition of maximum damage an attack could do which isn't actually that crystal clear. This is a time to use the sanity check.

 

[Andur]

Except of course a critical hit counts as maximum damage with maximum results on all dice rolls.

 

[DLichen]

Andur, saying that doesn't prove it. If you can provide a decent reason why you think that way, go for it. But I'm sick of you repeating the statement without countering any of the arguments against it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The damage roll rules says only weapon die + bonuses

The vorpal bonus doesn't get added until you roll the die. You never roll the die - ergo, you can't add vorpal die.

But if you did roll the dice, you might get to roll the vorpal dice, so when you're determining the maximum damage the attack could deal, they need to be considered.

Ignore the critical for a moment. Assume you didn't get a critical. There is no critical here. If you're using a Vorpal Weapon, what is the maximum damage you could roll with the attack?

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

The maximum damage of an attack with a Vorpal Weapon (excluding crit-only effects) is infinite, however unlikely it is that you'd roll that on ∞d8. So the damage dealt by a critical with a Vorpal Weapon is infinite... +6d12.

-Hyp.

I knew I could count on you, Hype.

 

[DLichen]

As I already stated Smurph, this devolves into a nonexistent timing rule debate. The case with crits is different from non crits solely because there is a break where you calculate crit damage and when you add vorpal die.

You can argue it your way by RAW, it's true.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I knew I could count on you, Hype.

Well, when I saw people posting "Nobody's arguing that X...", it seemed that there was a niche in the market for someone with X to sell!

-Hyp.