Vorpal Crits

[Andur]

Hyper, no, because you only apply critical damage to the initial dice. The vorpal description states you may reroll when the damage result for a die is maximized, the critical damage (auto max) is only applied to the initial "roll".

On a Crit Max the [W] add stat+feat+other

If you do that then you acknowledge that a damage roll has taken place, in which max damage is applied for all variable effects, you can only add anything after stat if it is a damage roll.

Losing the bulk of a level 30 epic weapon everytime you crit does not seem to be the intent, nor good game design. As Dlichen has pointed out, using 2d4 weapon will only increase the damage 50-60% on a crit using the vorpal properties.

 

[melkoriii]

If you do that then you acknowledge that a damage roll has taken place, in which max damage is applied for all variable effects, you can only add anything after stat if it is a damage roll.

No x[W] is not a roll. It is stating what the damage will be.

2d4 is also not a roll. It is also stating what the damage will be.

You use this information to derive the damage total.
That could be a roll, that could be a auto max, that could be an auto min.

It seems that you are just being stubborn about a rule that many have shown you how the RAW is.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

I'm not understanding this "infinite damage" loophole.

I crit with a vorpal weapon and get max damage on the "roll." I then reroll those dice. Any of those that deal max damage can be rerolled. That's it. If you keep getting maximum results, you keep rerolling. But getting that forever seems... unlikely. Clearly I'm misunderstanding the argument on some level.

 

[Chocobo]

So here's my question.

Let's assume for the moment that hong and Andur are correct - the [W] dice maximised by the critical are considered to have been rolled, and thus trigger the Property line in Vorpal.

We 'roll' our initial 2d8, and due to the magic of criticals, they both come up 8. Property kicks in, and we get to roll another 2d8.

The results of these dice are added to the damage total, and they are not "damage as the result of a critical hit" - I'd have gotten to roll these two dice again whether or not I'd rolled a critical, as long as they came up 8s. Since they are not "damage as the result of a critical", they are subject to maximising effect of the critical, and they both come up 8s. Which means Vorpal kicks in again, and I get to roll 2d8 again, and I get two more 8s.

Result? Just like in 3E, a critical with a Vorpal weapon kills, since the critical deals the maximum possible result - infinite damage - plus 6d12.

-Hyp.

Assuming the critical hit text can be applied to an attack recursively. That really depends on whether there is a sequence of events in determining damage.

If for instance you have a sequence such as:
1. Roll damage (If critical, damage roll is maximum possible)
2. Apply triggered effects from damage roll
3. Roll critical bonus damage
4. Apply triggered effects from critical damage roll

Then there is no way you can recursively apply the critical hit text.

On the other hand, You might have a sequence such as:
1. Roll damage (If critical, damage roll is maximum possible)
2. Apply triggered effects from damage roll
3. If additional damage dice are triggered, go to 1
4. Roll critical bonus damage
5. Apply triggered effects from critical damage roll
6. If additional damage dice are triggered, go to 4

As it happens, neither sequence is defined in the rules. So you're making an unsupported assumption by claiming that it is the second (or similar). Of course, the other side is making a similarly unsupported assumption by claiming it is the first.

 

[RefinedBean]

I think Andur had it right when he pointed out the example of a hit and critical hit on PHB 276:

With the attack power given, Valenae deals 2[W] damage, which means 2d8 with her longsword. She has a +7 bonus to this damage roll; +3 from strength, +2 from a feat bonus, and +2 from an enhancement bonus on her longsword.

The critical hit example in the paragraph below says she's dealing a maximum damage of 23, which is the maximum of 2d8 (16) + her total bonuses (7), so 7+16 = 23

Starting on page 232, any Enhancement Bonus listed under a weapon is added to "Attack rolls and damage rolls."

So if a critical hit was simply damage dealt instead of a maximized damage roll, then the previous example would be false, and the damage would instead be less.

Therefore, unless that specific example has been errata'd (and one never knows with those crazy cats at WotC), I'd say it's fairly clear that the Critical Damage is simply a maximized damage roll.

Now, since the Critical Hit is determined to be a roll, Vorpal WILL come into play with every single weapon die roll that's been maximized.

I'm sure others will see it differently, but when you have ambiguity and then an example presented that leans towards one argument, well...I usually start leanin', but que sera sera.

 

[hamishspence]

if the dice aren't rolling, they aren't getting rolled again

Thats the way I look at it. I roll natural 20 to hit: I am not rolling any dice for damage, just applying the maximum result. You actually have to roll the dice to get to roll again.

It says: Damage die. And damage die are are very specific thing: the W.
And damage die can be an expression of multiple dice. So "the maximum on a damage die" for a falchion is 8 on 2 d4: only if you get 8 do you reroll the "damage die" So, falchions are worse: 1 in 16 chance of maximum.

So, As written, extra dice shouldn't be rerollable.

They may, however, have ruled differently.

 

[DLichen]

I think Andur had it right when he pointed out the example of a hit and critical hit on PHB 276:

With the attack power given, Valenae deals 2[W] damage, which means 2d8 with her longsword. She has a +7 bonus to this damage roll; +3 from strength, +2 from a feat bonus, and +2 from an enhancement bonus on her longsword.

The critical hit example in the paragraph below says she's dealing a maximum damage of 23, which is the maximum of 2d8 (16) + her total bonuses (7), so 7+16 = 23

Starting on page 232, any Enhancement Bonus listed under a weapon is added to "Attack rolls and damage rolls."

So if a critical hit was simply damage dealt instead of a maximized damage roll, then the previous example would be false, and the damage would instead be less.

Therefore, unless that specific example has been errata'd (and one never knows with those crazy cats at WotC), I'd say it's fairly clear that the Critical Damage is simply a maximized damage roll.

Now, since the Critical Hit is determined to be a roll, Vorpal WILL come into play with every single weapon die roll that's been maximized.

I'm sure others will see it differently, but when you have ambiguity and then an example presented that leans towards one argument, well...I usually start leanin', but que sera sera.

That example doesn't actually help his argument any. Nowhere does it suggest that critical hit is actually rolled, just that a critical hit takes into account all the factors in a damage roll.

The bonuses are accounted for when you max the die on a critical hit, that does not imply that you rolled die or a roll was made.

It's actually pretty clear when critical hits specifically say: Rather than roll damage, as in rather than physically rolling die, which is what vorpal checks. If it does what you claim it does it would say something to the effect of: Act as though you rolled maximum damage.

Unless you can find an alternative interpretation of:

"Rather than rolling damage..."

There is just no ground to stand on.

 

[RefinedBean]

So you're saying that a critical hit takes all damage that can be applied to a maximum roll into account, and yet isn't a maximum roll in itself; it takes that number and makes it a simple "damage applied."

Okay, I see where you're coming from now.

So, (and as far as I know these don't exist), if any monster or character had an ability keyed off of a damage roll from a foe, a Critical Hit wouldn't trigger this?

I'm not trying to be snide, but it seems silly that Vorpal's main awesomeness doesn't trigger on a critical hit.

But, to each their own!

 

[hamishspence]

the main awesomeness

The fact that it applies to all attacks, whereas many proprties mostly only work on criticals, means you are getting a lot out of vorpal. Having it work on criticals as well might be too much of a good thing.

How about "damage die" given that damage die can be the expression of multiple dice? Should vorpal falchions only get rerolls when they roll their 2d4 and it comes up 8?

 

[RefinedBean]

How about "damage die" given that damage die can be the expression of multiple dice? Should vorpal falchions only get rerolls when they roll their 2d4 and it comes up 8?

I'd say so...but I can't really back that up through RAW.

Technically, each d4 is a "weapon damage die," right? So even if you roll only one "4", you'd reroll it.

This will probably be errata'd after WotC is done posting up their next article, "Zombies: They Don't Have to be Dead!," or whatever they have lined up.