Vorpal Crits

[Karui_Kage]

No worries then

 

[Hypersmurf]

"Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage die for this weapon, roll that die again..."

If they meant for you to reroll the weapon dice on crits, why not say
"Whenever you receive the maximum result on any damage roll for this weapon, roll the weapon damage die again..."?

That's a very different statement.

Let's say your damage roll is 2d8.

You could achieve the maximum result on any damage die with any of the combinations (1,8), (2,8), (3,8), (4,8), (5,8), (6,8), (7,8), (8,8), (8,7), (8,6), (8,5), (8,4), (8,3), (8,2), (8,1). You can only achieve the maximum result on the damage roll with the combination (8,8).

I'm going to rephrase my question from several pages back.

Let's say I make an attack with my Vorpal Weapon and do not roll a critical. What is the maximum damage I can roll with the attack?

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

The definition of damage roll arises because as implied by the box in 276, bonuses only apply to damage rolls and not damage in general. That's mostly poor positioning than actual writing, but it's there. The argument is that if you don't make a damage roll, you can never apply bonuses.

This is because the gamey definition of a damage roll is only a name. When you crit, you determine what damage you can do without actually rolling, this does not imply that crits are not damage rolls, merely that crits don't roll die. If you're going to apply the gamey definition of damage roll, you have to separate it from the normal definition. As unintuitive as it is, you can have a damage roll without rolling because you're using the game definition of damage roll which is weapon dice + bonuses.

Sure you can. A crit is a damage roll that's maxed.

See?

 

[fedelas]

So 14 pages of of debate based on "yes is a roll" and "no it isn't" and not much other argument and no one has a real answer? Sorry I'm unable to ask CutServ but if somebody can i really appreciate to had a more "official" answer posted here.
Thanks to all folks.

 

[Andur]

To me Cust Service was very clear on the fact that a critical hit is like all other damage rolls with all dice to be considered rolled with the maximum result.

Roll the dice, can mean many things, including the two most common of rolling physical dice, it can also mean to try one's luck. (For those it means a very specific thing, it doesn't)

Without dice you cannot achieve a maximum damage roll, result, whatever. In order to achieve it all results of all die have to be maximized. In pseudo code you get:
Die=RNG(1,10)
Crit=Die=10
Anytime the Die range changes so does the crit value, the crit value is dependent on the die.

All the damage you would have dealt if the attack was not critical hit is dealt and all dice rolls are considered to be the maximum possible roll, then you roll any damage that is triggered because you rolled a critical hit like that from a magic weapon.

Keyword in the quote is considered which means "regarded as", regard means "to relate or refer to", relate means "to establish or demonstrate a connection between".

Until the "cons" guys can refute the CServ guy, I'll go with the "malleable" ruling of CServ. (It's the only one we have, but we've all seen CServ contradict itself several times, much like the Sage does.)

 

[DClown]

To me Cust Service was very clear on the fact that a critical hit is like all other damage rolls with all dice to be considered rolled with the maximum result.

Roll the dice, can mean many things, including the two most common of rolling physical dice, it can also mean to try one's luck. (For those it means a very specific thing, it doesn't)

Without dice you cannot achieve a maximum damage roll, result, whatever. In order to achieve it all results of all die have to be maximized. In pseudo code you get:
Die=RNG(1,10)
Crit=Die=10
Anytime the Die range changes so does the crit value, the crit value is dependent on the die.



Keyword in the quote is considered which means "regarded as", regard means "to relate or refer to", relate means "to establish or demonstrate a connection between".

Until the "cons" guys can refute the CServ guy, I'll go with the "malleable" ruling of CServ. (It's the only one we have, but we've all seen CServ contradict itself several times, much like the Sage does.)

When you ask CServ a question they start from a very basic precept that everyone calling them is an idiot. They have to answer in a way that will allow the person asking the question to understand what they need to do in that specific situation. They do not for example have a game term dictionary, or an english dictionary on their table and look up every single word to see how it might impact the rest of the game.

This for example is NOT one of the thoughts in their head.

"Hmm this person is asking how to determine critical damage in a generic sense, and I used the word 'considered' here, which means to regard, but they might confuse that with the 'roll' definition and end up rolling extra dice on the vorpal crit so I should use the word 'replace' instead."


They say what they need to say in order to answer the specific scenario. Unless you asked the very specific question with regard to vorpal crits, taking a CS response to a generic crit question and trying to apply english definitions to their response to come up with 'extra rules' is not a valid justification. I'm not saying your wrong, just that your reasoning here is flawed. So has anybody asked this specific question of CS?

 

[Caliban]

If I have time today I'll try sending a question to customer service.

If all it is a matter of rolling a 2-7 extra dice on a crit (depending on attack power used), I really don't think it's a big deal either way, not at lvl 27-30 (when you can reasonable expect to have a vorpal weapon).

I just don't agree with the "infinite damage" on a crit interpetation.

 

[ExploderWizard]

WOW. 14 pages of debate over something that used to be solved with-you cut off your foe's head: he dies. So the 4E methods are simpler?

 

[Andur]

If I have time today I'll try sending a question to customer service.

If all it is a matter of rolling a 2-7 extra dice on a crit (depending on attack power used), I really don't think it's a big deal either way, not at lvl 27-30 (when you can reasonable expect to have a vorpal weapon).

I just don't agree with the "infinite damage" on a crit interpetation.

On average rerolling the initial "maximized damage" will cause a increase of 50-60% damage over a regular crit.

And the infinite damage is not possible without some major abuse.

 

[Zurai]

I just don't agree with the "infinite damage" on a crit interpetation.

What infinite damage interpretation? No one's proposing that vorpal criticals do infinite damage.