Vow of Poverty: Power Analysis

[Artoomis]

Well, I think I'd like to try it. I've always liked the idea of a monk who could be more-or-less on par with other characters without having any equipment. That's my idea of a monk (as in "Kung Fu").

Anyway, it seems failry well-balanced to me. The analyses presented here have convinced me that this class is well-balanced, but could potentially be boring in the long-run. This is especially true in a campaign where many adventures center around the quest for more items (or money to buy items) in order to increase PC power. PCs have more variety in how they develop when they rely on items than when they do not, as they must adjust to the items they find and/or purchase.

I think I'll try this as my next character. I've always liked monks, and this makes them playable without equipment or relying on bizarre things like magical tattoos, etc.

Edit: Upon further reflection, I think there are basically three instances in which this class is not balanced:

1. A low magic campaign, where this class would be over-powered.
2. A campaign where PCs are frequently captured and stripped of equipment (or face similar circumstance), where this class might be over-powered.
3. A high magic campaign, where this class could be under-powered.

One thing I am uncertain about is how balanced it is at each level, but I'll try and run one and find out for myself.

 

[Madriver]

Bumped up from the depths.

I am playing a VoP monk in our current campaign and can honestly say that VoP is not over-powered...I'll probably never play it again. Why won't I play it again? No versatility on gear. Imagine creating a 15th level monk on paper from scratch, including all the gear that he is supposed to have at that level. But instead of starting the monk at 15th level you are told to start him at 1st level and as you advance the only gear he will get is according to what you originally decided...and you can't even create anything! While the lower level power increased enough to make a low level monk exciting, it isn't enough to offset the lack in versatility.

The best thing about VoP for low level monks...the armor bonus lets them assign their abilities to make them better fighters without making them gimped. So giving the monk a STR of 16 will not leave them with a 14 AC. And while the exalted feats are great, the requirements for them are pretty steep, especially the CHA 15 requirement for the better ones. With a class that has A LOT of important abilities, needing to put a 15 in what is normally a dump stat reduces the other stats a lot. My VoP monk does not have a 15 CHA, so right now I'm at a loss where to assign the exalted feats...there really are not that many good ones.

To sum it up in a nut shell, the VoP monk is great at low levels (not over-powered) but gets boring quick.

 

[Thanee]

Judging only from the original post, I think that totally underlines, that VoP is just fine normally.

It gives more in terms of gp value, sure, and you have the HUGE advantage, that you always keep the stuff, but then again, you have the HUGE disadvantage, that you always get the exact same stuff, no tinkering, no tweaking, you cannot pick up an item, that at some point during the course of the campaign looks highly beneficial.

It grants a very decent base of abilities, but it doesn't even cover all the necessities, especially at higher levels. Save bonuses are more weak than anything else, for example, a big disadvantage!

Also a VoP spellcaster cannot use spells with costly material components, since he cannot own those components. He might be able to cast them for others, if they provide the material, tho.

A VoP wizard may not own a spellbook.

Sure, you can create some broken characters (grappling VoP druid mostly, I don't think the VoP monk is in any way broken, and those are argueably the most common VoP characters, sorcerer might work very well, too), but isn't that true with almost every ability?

I think most characters with the VoP, that are not min/maxing monstrosities (like spending all your money on manuals and then picking up VoP, or using the leadership feat to gain a cohort to make use of your share of equipment - yeah, right! Here are your 16 tons! *squish* ), will end up fairly average, all things considered. If you judge VoP as a min/maxing mechanic, then you have to compare with other extreme min/maxing concepts, I'm sure those can easily compare, too.

Bye
Thanee

 

[adriayna]

Edit: Upon further reflection, I think there are basically three instances in which this class is not balanced:

1. A low magic campaign, where this class would be over-powered.
2. A campaign where PCs are frequently captured and stripped of equipment (or face similar circumstance), where this class might be over-powered.
3. A high magic campaign, where this class could be under-powered.

I've seen the VOP in play in two different games, and I agree with this analysis. In certain games, the VOP is fine. In other low powered games, it is way over-the-top.

Another consideration to make is what type of campaign it is. The VOP is good, but its general. If the party needs special items to survive or special items to kill a foe, a VOP character is out of luck.

I've also found that if a DM enforces the RP aspect of the character, this is another balancing factor.

So would I allow it in my games? In some games, yes it would be allowed on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Thanee]

Of course, VoP only really works in a campaign, which follows the standard guidelines about magical treasure (at least roughly).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Whitemage Bishieboy]

everyone has made so many good points and i doubt vow of poverty is "broken" in a standard wealth game.on the other hand i believe it has many mechanical problems in "non-standard" games.

any caimpaign where the gm uses rust monsters,mords disjunction and the like without future compensation it becomes overpowered.
any caimpaign/adventure where everyone else is striped of there gear its instantly overpowered.

and it causes headaches for party cohesion.everyone else has to pick up his res tab.although it is a fair arguement he would give up 25k of his future treasure if he isnt lawfull good.(he is exalted after all)
of course theres the why does this feat benefit low level charecters more?

thus my view is simple.it is not overpowered it is whacked out.

 

[Scion]

any caimpaign where the gm uses ... mords disjunction

is already beyond hope anyway

 

[Elric]

Yes, your vow of poverty character will be good when everyone else has no gear. But when the party has a magic artifact sword that is the only thing that can harm the uber-demon, it really sucks to be you.

The truth is that vow of poverty is nowhere near lowest marginal cost for the benefits that it provides and does not allow much flexibility. That said, my 15th level exalted monk is a blast to play. I like having no magic items- it makes your character really easy to work with.

 

[robberbaron]

In a low-magic game the VoP is rather good but, in a game with plentiful magic items, a VoP character will really lag behind his companions.

I think it would be a brave choice in any game and wouldn't necessarily ban it in my game (if I wasn't already limiting it to PHB/DMG/MM/SRD), but I reckon the player would more than likely get bent about all his companions' cool items.

 

[BAW]

I'm the GM of a medium-high magic campaign and in that campaign there is a VoP monk. Originally, the monk used magic items but when we found the VoP we instantly converted as it fit the character very well and seemed well balanced.

I now have to tell the other members of the party that I'm going to have to tone the feat up-start too early and the later feats are pathetic, too late then too few feats. Simply put, versatility and power are equatable. All the other characters can prepare for an opponent-the monk sits there and thinks, "Yeah, that would be useful". In exchange for this ability, as the DM I can't take his stuff away, but his stuff never changes.
I'm tempted to give the player in question a monetary value each level for equivalent utility magic items. Or he can purchase more item equivalent abilities with his feats.

Some of the other players complain because the feat does not rely on me to work-in treasure and think it's over-powered. First hand experience says otherwise; thankfully the VoP gives the monk a decent AC atm Lvl 13 (it will drop in comparison to the others quickly), making him a potent frontline fighter against low AC opponents but still slightly behind them against the tougher opponents.

To sum up, the VoP is a nice idea but one which causes the DM and player headaches due to its lack of versatility and overall power level.