Vow of poverty question

[Halivar]

This is a good point. I probably give out somewhat less than standard loot (with a lot of treasure in nontraditional forms, such as titles and positions).

What finally killed VoP for me was a game where I got his by something; can't remember what, but every other person in the party had a relatively cheap wondrous item that protected them from the effect. I didn't, and I failed a save-or-die/suck. It's amazing how much utility you give up by forgoing magic items.

 

[the Jester]

For me, part of what makes it so problematic is how big of a difference there is between not having magic items as a fighter and not having magic items as a druid. If it isn't balanced in pretty much all cases, it just isn't balanced IMHO.

 

[Halivar]

For me, part of what makes it so problematic is how big of a difference there is between not having magic items as a fighter and not having magic items as a druid. If it isn't balanced in pretty much all cases, it just isn't balanced IMHO.

I think what you're describing here is a fundamental problem in 3.x and 4E: the assumption of magic items and their bonuses in the power-by-level curve. VoP is static and predictable, but everyone else is wildly unpredictable in relation, depending on how the DM chooses to allot magic loot. Even in a campaign with planned loot, a heavy-magic game makes VoP under-powered, and a magic-light game makes VoP over-powered.

But like I said, we hewed pretty close to the default, so VoP was rarely a problem. Not spectacular, either though, so it did sometimes feel like a wasted feat.

 

[Greenfield]

I had one player try to use it for a Sorcerer type. Broken as hell.

The ability buffs, which are supposed to replace stat boost items, aren't listed as "Enhancement" bonuses, so the stat boosting spells stack with them.

The AC bonus, which is supposed to replace armor or AC items, is also subject to stacking with spells like Mage Armor etc.

It's the same with most of the abilities: If they take the place of an item which replicates a spell effect, the spell effect stacks with it and takes it over the top.

You can't use it with a Wizard, since they have to own spell books and the VOP doesn't have those on the list of allowable possessions, nor would it allow them to ever own the 100 gp per page it costs to add spells to a spell book, but pretty much any caster class that doesn't use such things gets to stack effects to the roof.

 

[Halivar]

The ability buffs, which are supposed to replace stat boost items, aren't listed as "Enhancement" bonuses, so the stat boosting spells stack with them.

The AC bonus, which is supposed to replace armor or AC items, is also subject to stacking with spells like Mage Armor etc.

It's the same with most of the abilities: If they take the place of an item which replicates a spell effect, the spell effect stacks with it and takes it over the top.

Are you sure​? Because I remember them being listed as enhancement and armor bonuses, respectively.

EDIT: Ability score improvement is an enhancement bonus, AC bonus is an exalted bonus with a note that it does not stack with any armor bonus.

 

[Greenfield]

I stand corrected, at least partially. Ability bonuses are Enhancements. AC bonus is an Exalted bonus to armor.

There are separate Deflection and Natural Armor bonuses as level based bennies. Natural armor spells like Barkskin do stack with the NA bonus though.

 

[jholt5638]

The general feeling is if you stick to the DMG loot tables by level it somewhat balances out but still shafts the player slightly. But in a high magic setting its underpowered and low magic its overpowered. There is also the problem with the requirements of keeping the vow that nerf the player if happens to be the last one standing as per the examples given above. Finally the only classes that really break it are the classes that would carry gear in the first place like druids.

Admittedly its been a few years but I would have to agree that BoED is very much more aligned with Law rather than
Good in the D&D since of moral alignment.

 

[eggynack]

This isn't even close to broken on a druid. Even simple druid itemization tactics, like metamagic rods of extend spell of various types, trappings of the beast from complete champion, maybe a monk's belt, and perhaps a pearl of speech, are going to far outstrip the mostly numeric benefits of vow of poverty. VoP druids are definitely viable, as they don't rely on items to do things, as druid exalted feats are just about the best exalted feats, and as there are incentives to not use items, but if you're even loosely following wealth by level, it does represent a reduction in power. Monks can't even lay claim to that level of VoP competency, as they lack the intrinsic capabilities to work well without items.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Keep it away from druids, monks, and the table min-maxer, and you'll be fine.

 

[eggynack]

Keep it away from druids, monks, and the table min-maxer, and you'll be fine.

As I mentioned in the post above yours, rather untrue on all counts. In a game with standard wealth, and even a game with reasonable yet lower than standard wealth, VoP is power reducing yet reasonable on a druid, incredibly weak on a monk (they really need items to function effectively), and that becomes even more true in the hands of a min-maxer, as there's a lot more variety and complexity in itemization than there is in VoP use.

Edit: Also, seriously, even if monk were somehow good with VoP, I don't see why you'd disallow the feat. Monks need all the help they can get. Druid I can almost get, because they have a high baseline level of potency, and a player with low optimization ability is going to be able to find exalted wild shape a lot easier than they'll find the best druid items, but it doesn't make any sense for monks.