D&D 5E Wait, what IS the point of Acrobatics?

[Dungeoneer]

I'm usually in favor of fewer skills rather than more, but here's an idea: Athletics should be split in two, one skill for feats of upper body strength, one skill for lower. Specifically, I think running and jumping should maybe be in their own skill. Someone who is great at running is not necessarily capable of dead lifting 500 lbs, and vice versa.

 

[Juriel]

I'm usually in favor of fewer skills rather than more, but here's an idea: Athletics should be split in two, one skill for feats of upper body strength, one skill for lower. Specifically, I think running and jumping should maybe be in their own skill. Someone who is great at running is not necessarily capable of dead lifting 500 lbs, and vice versa.

Problem with making Jumping as its own thing is that this is a game where eventually, everyone will fly.

And there's a lot of athletic tasks that use both upper and lower body strength - you're not hanging on that wall through just your arms, I would hope.

 

[Dungeoneer]

Problem with making Jumping as its own thing is that this is a game where eventually, everyone will fly.

And there's a lot of athletic tasks that use both upper and lower body strength - you're not hanging on that wall through just your arms, I would hope.

Sure, but we have to abstract somewhat. This isn't a gymnastics simulation.

And besides, leveling a jumping skill to epic levels makes sense in a way. Some superheroes fly - but some just jump a really long ways!

 

[KarinsDad]

I like your explanation. It's just lacking a reason to separate the two in the first place.

Because one is based on physical strength and one is based on physical dexterity.

It really boils down to that. Two different physical skill sets, just like there are 4 knowledge skills, 2 influence skills, and 2 observational skills.

Quite frankly, several skills could be combined. But when 5 PCs have 4 skills each, only have 10 or 12 skills means a lot of overlap and fewer opportunities for PCs to be unique.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Quite frankly, several skills could be combined. But when 5 PCs have 4 skills each, only have 10 or 12 skills means a lot of overlap and fewer opportunities for PCs to be unique.

And its for this point that I'm so glad we now have the BIFT personality characteristics in the game. Because I know for my table that's really how the characters are going to distinguish themselves from each other. As a previous Fate player, I can tell you that while the skills in the game had a place, they were generic enough that they were not the primary way the characters were shaped. It was their Aspects that carried the heavy load for distinguishing characters. And I can guarantee that my D&D game is going to see the same exact thing happen because of the BIFT.

Here's what I wrote about it over in the 'Are you excited for the Backgrounds?' thread:

The one thing I know I'm going to do with Backgrounds is make them an additional point for Inspiration generation.

The Background names plus the BIFT system (Bonds, Ideals, Flaws, Traits) when combined together are almost a recreation of the Aspect system in Fate. Your Background is your High Concept, your Flaw is your Trouble, and the Bonds, Ideals, and Traits are other Aspects of your character. And every time they apply, you acquire an Inspiration (Fate) point, which you can use to re-roll a check. The two systems are very similar.

So that's how I'm going to handle it when getting my players to create their PCs. Their Background will grant them the two skills, tool or language proficiencies, and their feature as normal... but I'm also going to let them use it / rename it as an aspect of their character a la a 'High Concept' to be a part of their personality characteristics. So if someone took the Soldier background for example, they might make:

Background: Quartermaster of the Flying Tiger Mercenary Company
Flaw: Stingy With The Supplies
Trait: Fast With A Smile, Quick With A Joke
Ideal: The Chain of Command Is Paramount
Bond: Always Have Your Ally's Back

Then as these come up during play they'll acquire Inspiration points that they can use to roll with Advantage on a check. As a big fan of the Fate Core system... I'm looking forward to incorporating it into D&D.

To go a bit further on this topic... PCs having a proficiency with Arcana mean they know some stuff about magic. But many people know stuff about magic, so that in itself isn't anything really unique for a particular PC. Now the PC who have proficiency in Arcana *and* has a high INT... they're probably going to be known a bit more for it. Their knowledge will be quite substantial compared to other regular magically-knowledgeable people. But then there's the PC who has Arcana, a high INT *and* has the Sage background with an Astronomer specialty, plus a Bond that says "I have an ancient text that holds terrible secrets that must not fall into the wrong hands." And it's determined between the DM and player that this ancient text is a book of star charts that describe the horrors of aberrations from the Far Realm... which now grants the PC Inspiration points whenever aberration knowledge has an import, and thus the player now gets to roll Advantage more often.

All of these facets combined will give the PCs in my game much, much more of a specificity of character than they'd ever get just from having a skill. Yeah, Arcana is great. But it doesn't hold nearly the weight of character uniqueness on its own. So combining/separating skills into smaller/larger foci doesn't really add much in the grand scheme of things in my game. Which is exactly why for me... having a skill of just 'Athletics', or having 'Athletics' and 'Acrobatics', or having 'Climb', 'Jump', 'Swim', 'Balance', and Tumble' as options to choose from doesn't really mean a whole lot. It's the PC that has these skills *and* the Trait 'Lithe Like A Cat' that really is going to be the exemplar and really unique.

Most other games probably won't play it like that... and that's okay. But it does hopefully explain why it'll work wonders for me.

 

[KarinsDad]

And its for this point that I'm so glad we now have the BIFT personality characteristics in the game. Because I know for my table that's really how the characters are going to distinguish themselves from each other. As a pervious Fate player, I can tell you that while the skills in the game had a place, they were generic enough that they were not the primary way the characters were shaped. It was their Aspects that carried the heavy load for distinguishing characters. And I can guarantee that my D&D game is going to see the same exact thing happen because of the BIFT.

Here's what I wrote about it over in the 'Are you excited for the Backgrounds?' thread:



To go a bit further on this topic... PCs having a proficiency with Arcana mean they know some stuff about magic. But many people know stuff about magic, so that in itself isn't anything really unique for a particular PC. Now the PC who have proficiency in Arcana *and* has a high INT... they're probably going to be known a bit more for it. Their knowledge will be quite substantial compared to other regular magically-knowledgeable people. But then there's the PC who has Arcana, a high INT *and* has the Sage background with an Astronomer specialty, plus a Bond that says "I have an ancient text that holds terrible secrets that must not fall into the wrong hands." And it's determined between the DM and player that this ancient text is a book of star charts that describe the horrors of aberrations from the Far Realm... which now grants the PC Inspiration points whenever aberration knowledge has an import, and thus the player now gets to roll Advantage more often.

Sounds awesome. I hope I can incorporate stuff like this in my game (time is a factor though and it depends a bit on the players). Course, I have to convince my players to switch to 5E first (not that I couldn't do it in 4E, it'll just be more work).

 

[Sadrik]

I am going to add the save proficiencies to skills. In this case acrobatics is the DEX save. So this means that each class is given these skills for free with their save proficiency.

Skills as saves:
STR Athletics
DEX Acrobatics
CON Endurance
INT Investigation
WIS Will
CHA Insight (Moved from WIS)

Another save of sorts WIS Perception.

Also, I am making initiative checks skill checks (DEX athletics initially though I may do WIS perception for initiative as I believe orienting yourself to the battlefield is more important that simply reacting first.

 

[Joe Liker]

I dislike the "ninjas should be the best climbers, so basing it on Str is dumb" example that people use when trying to merge and muddy the two skills. Almost as much as I dislike the idea of merging and muddying the two skills!

A ninja is a good climber because that ninja has Athletics proficiency. At high levels, that ninja is going to be a pretty darned good climber, regardless of his Str. At low levels, I'm not convinced that every ninja should be an excellent climber.

You know who is a better climber at low levels? The guy with lots of upper arm strength who can lift his own body weight without breaking a sweat. That strength isn't going to do him as much good in bad conditions (where proficiency will help a lot), but it is enough to get the job done at simple climbing when training isn't necessary.

Same with jumping. Two people who are similarly trained jumpers are going to be able to jump similar distances, but if one is stronger than the other, the strong one will win, period. Dexterity has nothing to do with it -- it's the training that matters. (You could figure body weight into the equation, but that's far too granular for 5e.)

So yeah, climbing and jumping are always Athletics. Balance is always Acrobatics. People are good at one or the other because of training, not because of innate dexterity.

I understand that people want to conflate the two because the effect of intense practice often looks a lot like innate dexterity. But they are not the same.

 

[Emka]

havent seen it mentioned yet, but Acrobatics is also used in special forms of movement, as mentioned in Chapter 3: Adventuring.

 

[Drudenfusz]

I am going to add the save proficiencies to skills. In this case acrobatics is the DEX save. So this means that each class is given these skills for free with their save proficiency.

Skills as saves:
STR Athletics
DEX Acrobatics
CON Endurance
INT Investigation
WIS Will
CHA Insight (Moved from WIS)

Another save of sorts WIS Perception.

Also, I am making initiative checks skill checks (DEX athletics initially though I may do WIS perception for initiative as I believe orienting yourself to the battlefield is more important that simply reacting first.

Make the Charisma save Etiquette!

By the way, Acrobatics is important to check on how good the performance in bed is! Or is that not the reason for that skill?