Wands with swift action spells- swift or standard action to activate?

[FoxWander]

Now, at first this question would seem to be a no-brainer... wands have spell trigger activation which is a standard action that doesn't provoke AoO. But apparently there's more to it than that or else I wouldn't bother posting about it.

Here's what brings the rule into question, the many X Strike spells in the Complete Adventurer. All of these spells would obviously be way cool for a rogue to have on occasion. In case you don't have the CAdv, the spells are Golem, Grave and Vine Strike. They all allow you to sneak attack normally immune creatures- Constructs, Undead and Plants. There is also Wraithstrike which makes all your melee attacks into touch attacks. They are all 1 swift action to cast, have a range of "personal" and have a duration of "1 round".

If you're a rogue/spellcaster, no problem... cast away and start sneak attacking whatever you want. But if you can't cast the spell normally, there's always UMD and wands of these spells, right? Answer: I don't know. The only way they're usable as spells is because they're a swift action to cast. Otherwise their 1 round duration makes them completely unusable. If they were a standard action to cast (or activate, as you would normally think with a wand) then the duration means the effect would end just before your action next round, thus preventing you from using the effect. And they're range is personal so you can't have your spellcasting buddy cast it on you before you do your sneak attack.

All of this would seem to be fine- they're spells only intended to be used by multiclass sneak attackers/spell casters. I'd mourn for the loss of cheesy goodness for my single class rogue and move on. Except for one thing- the CAdv specifically lists these spells as wands in the new magic items section! Now, if the ONLY way these spells can be used is as a SWIFT action effect cast ON YOURSELF, why are they listed as wands? It would seem there are two possible answers-

1) That it's simply a mistake. They forgot these spells would be completely useless as wands and put all four of them in the Wands section in error.
2) That spells that are a swift action to cast are, as wands, a swift action to activate.

There is a precedent for answer 2 actually, since spells with longer than 1 action casting times are also a longer action to activate as a wand. It's only a minor stretch to allow the reverse to be true.

Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

So, if the wands were NOT listed by mistake and swift action spells are intended to be swift action wands, these are my questions to you fine folks...

1) Do you think that's the way swift action spells as wands are intended to be activated?
2) If they are "swift action wands" what problems/potential abuses do you foresee because of this?
3) How would you rule on this in your game?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The answer is 1) - but it's really probably more like, "It's simply a mistake; someone didn't realize that a wand of a swift action spell is still a standard action to activate."

It's the same issue that appears with the artificer metamagic item example in the Eberron Campaign Setting, in which an artificer applies Quicken Spell to a wand. As the rules are written, this doesn't really have any effect.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The answer is 1) - but it's really probably more like, "It's simply a mistake; someone didn't realize that a wand of a swift action spell is still a standard action to activate."

Put your Swift spells onto scrolls instead, and you're good to go.

-Hyp.

 

[Pinotage]

Put your Swift spells onto scrolls instead, and you're good to go.

-Hyp.

For the record to add to Hypersmurf correct statement according to the core rules, the Miniatures handbook actually states that swift actions in scrolls are also standard action activation. However, there is some debate as to whether that is correct based on preceding text in the same paragraph which is incorrect according the core rules. According to Core Rules only, scrolls with swift actions have swift action activation times. According to a reading of the Miniatures Handbook, they don't. Ask your DM, or take a look at the text in the Miniatures handbook.

Pinotage

 

[Lamoni]

My opinion is that since swift actions weren't invented until long after there was spellcasting and wands that the default activation was set to a standard action with no caveat for spells that have a shorter duration.

In my game I'd allow them to be activated with a swift action... and I think that if the PHB was written with swift spells in mind that it would be allowed according to the rules. Right now the rules as written state that it cannot be done.

 

[Hypersmurf]

My opinion is that since swift actions weren't invented until long after there was spellcasting and wands that the default activation was set to a standard action with no caveat for spells that have a shorter duration.

But Feather Fall and Quickened spells existed when the wand text was written...

-Hyp.

 

[Sigma]

For the record to add to Hypersmurf correct statement according to the core rules, the Miniatures handbook actually states that swift actions in scrolls are also standard action activation. However, there is some debate as to whether that is correct based on preceding text in the same paragraph which is incorrect according the core rules. According to Core Rules only, scrolls with swift actions have swift action activation times. According to a reading of the Miniatures Handbook, they don't. Ask your DM, or take a look at the text in the Miniatures handbook.

Pinotage

Too bad it's still a move equivalent to pull that scroll of feather fall out of the backback though.

*splat*

 

[FoxWander]

Put your Swift spells onto scrolls instead, and you're good to go.

Yeah, I figured that would be a "core rules" answer but somehow it just seems wrong that reading a scroll (or heck, reading anything!) could be done quick enough to be considered a swift action, as the rules define it.

Since 'spell trigger' activation could best be described as just thinking at the wand to "do it's thing", I'd be ok with it being a swift action for spells that would be cast as swift actions. But, until there's some errata on the subject or a Sage Advice ruling, it looks like ruling that way will have to be in house rules territory. Although at least it has some vague precedent with longer spells taking longer activation and the presence of four otherwise useless wands in the CAdv wands list.

So, aside from the fact that this should probably be in the "house rules" forum now, can anyone see any problems with swift action wands? It would seem that if the spells are balanced that wands would be as well. But then I haven't seen these spells used yet. Does anyone that has think the spells themselves are a problem?

 

[FEADIN]

I can see no problem with that, in the text for wands they say:"usually a standard action", it seems they let the possibility for something different to exist, in the core rules it was Feather Fall maybe.
Activating a spell trigger item is described as saying a word, with a wand and a sword in the other hand you can say a word and the magic of the swift spell comes immediatly to allow you to make other actions, with 1 action spells stored in a wand it's the magic which takes time to come out, not the word you say.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I can see no problem with that, in the text for wands they say:"usually a standard action", it seems they let the possibility for something different to exist, in the core rules it was Feather Fall maybe.

They did let the possibility of something different exist, and they clarify it in the parentheses.

It's usually a standard action. When is it not a standard action? (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action).

-Hyp.