D&D 5E Want a better Rogue? Build a Wizard. Or why play a Rogue?

[FrozenNorth]

More than that - it probably is a reflection of how I run my campaign. I'm not really big on a lot of social skill rolls and I run a lot of combat in D&D. So, I think, kind of the opposite of your inference here, the player is very perceptive about the limitations of the class relative to my campaign and how I run D&D.

(Joking) If that is the case, one thing the rogue has the wizard doesn’t is being able to Dash three times per round with wasting a round casting Longstrider.

 

[Hoffmand]

If you eliminate the rogue then you can take two wizards: One to cast Silence and the other to cast Knock. One or more of the wizards can be a member of the Rouge Wizards of Thay as a bonus.



The problem with traps in 5e is that you need the Wisdom of a cleric to perceive a trap, the Intelligence of wizard to investigate the trap, and then the Dexterity of a rogue to disarm the trap. That's three chance to fail and leave the rogue rouge handed.

I allow players to search traps with thieves tools and it’s a dex check since it is tactile. Screw wizards being better at finding traps.

 

[Attila The Fun]

I was hoping for a bit of advice on improving my rogue in combat after reading some posts. I am comparing my level 12 rogue to a our party fighter and would like for him to be able to put out better damage than our fighter. I am sure I am not looking at something correctly here.

Fighter 12 - +2 long sword, shield, dueling fighting style
Attack 1 (13.5 avg damage)= 6.5 (+2 long sword) +5 (strength modifier)+2 (dueling fighting style)
Attack 2 (13.5 avg damage)= 6.5 (+2 long sword) +5 (strength modifier)+2 (dueling fighting style)
Attack 3 (13.5 avg damage)= 6.5 (+2 long sword) +5 (strength modifier)+2 (dueling fighting style)
40.5 Total avg damage

Rogue 12- +2 rapier, +2 off hand short sword
Main hand attack w/ sneak att. (32.5 avg. damage)= 6.5 (+2 Rapier) +5 (dex modifier)+21 (sneak attack)
Off Hand Attack (5.5 avg damage)= 5.5 (+2 short sword)
38 Total avg damage

I know crits will bump up the damage slightly to put me even with the fighter. I guess at level 16 I could take the Sentinel feat. That would give allow me to apply another sneak attack as a reaction but that reduces the utility of uncanny dodge a which is important for survivability. Any ideas?

 

[Dausuul]

if you look back at my post i said in order to pull off what i said you would need to use this spell in conjunction with some things to get that range. That heavily implies MORE THAN JUST ARCANE EYE ON ITS OWN.

You do not say what "some things" are, and you are on record as claiming--in all seriousness--that stacking glyphs of warding on the inside of a bag of holding should get around the "you can't move the glyph" restriction and thus allow wizards to store and trigger an unlimited number of spells.

So... yeah. Gonna need a little more than just your unsupported assertion that there are "some things" which can do this.

 

[pogre]

If your style of game, is fights on flat surfaces, with no elevation changes, no difficult terrain, etc...maybe, the above quote might be somewhat valid.

Otherwise, when the Fighter is trying to run and jump across the ice field, and scale the icy hill to reach the Beur Hag, the Rogue will already be there.

Pogre, I have seen your miniatures and terrain photos since the 3e days. The type of Flatland combat, Attila is describing, does not match with your Hirst-Art Fu.

Well, the player has decided to give a rogue build a whirl. Hopefully, I can set up opportunities like you are describing to let him really shine. My goal is always to try and provide entertaining encounters for everyone in the party.

I'm pretty flexible in my D&D campaigns in letting players re-arrange their character's class levels, feats, etc. in a way they will find fun to play. I don't saddle player's with decisions they regret, partially because I run such long campaigns.

We are playing a lot via Zoom these days - so it is a great time to mess around with builds.

I want to thank everyone for contributing - I appreciate the thoughts that went into your posts.

 

[Dausuul]

I was hoping for a bit of advice on improving my rogue in combat after reading some posts. I am comparing my level 12 rogue to a our party fighter and would like for him to be able to put out better damage than our fighter.

Why do you expect that this should be possible?

Fighting is the fighter's job. They are, and should be, in the top tier for single-target damage output. You can match that, but there is no reason you should be able to exceed it significantly.

 

[Fenris-77]

That fighter is also a pretty low key DPR build compared to GWM and PAM builds. I don't have a conceptual issue with the rogue wanted to exceed that number. Given the characters are already at 12th level I'm not sure there's much to be done though. Most of the answers I can think of require MCing, and that's a rough go in that tier.

 

[tommybahama]

I was hoping for a bit of advice on improving my rogue in combat after reading some posts. I am comparing my level 12 rogue to a our party fighter and would like for him to be able to put out better damage than our fighter. I am sure I am not looking at something correctly here.

You are assuming that the fighter hits every time. You should be able to gain advantage on your attacks using cunning action and hit more frequently than the fighter. So that extra 2.5 dpr for the fighter disappears.

The fighter probably has low charisma, intelligence, and/or wisdom. So when he gets shut down by an enemy spell requiring concentration, only you are there to break the spell with your bow shot.

If the rogue is running into combat with dual weapons then eventually he will get pinned down and won't be able to save the fighter or protect his spell casters from damage. That results in his side losing control of the battlefield. Things immediately go sideways resulting in a tpk. All because the rogue had a big ego and didn't want to stay in his lane.

 

[Attila The Fun]

That fighter is also a pretty low key DPR build compared to GWM and PAM builds. I don't have a conceptual issue with the rogue wanted to exceed that number. Given the characters are already at 12th level I'm not sure there's much to be done though. Most of the answers I can think of require MCing, and that's a rough go in that tier.

Thanks Fenris. I was thinking, based on the other comments about rogue damage output, that I might be doing something wrong.

 

[Fenris-77]

Thanks Fenris. I was thinking, based on the other comments about rogue damage output, that I might be doing something wrong.

Not really. To really take your DPR any further you'd either need extra attacks or melee cantrips and spells, both of which are MC dependent. The easiest way to go is spellcasting - booming blade and green flame blade are both pretty sweet, and spells like hunters mark help too. In your shoes I'd probably just keep on as a rogue and keep stacking up sneak attack dice and high level rogue features.