want to know more about Arcana Evolved, Blue Rose, or Grim Tales to do D&D-style game

[Clint]

My play group moved on from 3.x to other systems because we grew tired of not getting the game right and combat taking too long. Every combat was a balance between fast playtime with errors, and minutes spent looking stuff up or confirming how things work. Our house rule/reminder document grew so long that it felt silly.

We've enjoyed Savage Worlds and Unisystem. However, neither of these systems support do D&D-style gaming, with the levels and the classes and such, and sometimes that's what we want.

I remember liking like Monte's work. We played through the Banewarrens and mostly enjoyed it, and his rules additions to our campaign at the time (BoEM 1 and 2) were great. I feel the same way, if not more so, for Green Ronin; everything we used of theirs was rock solid and made the game more fun, and not more complicated. And I've heard good things about Grim Tales.

We just had a problem with some parts of the 3.x game system, and when these are totalled up, made the game less than fun for us. So I'm curious about Arcana Evolved and Blue Rose as they relate to my specific concerns with 3.x, as we're looking for a flavor of D&D that's more in line with our group. We want a version of D&D that better suits us. Do either Arcana Evolved or Blue Rose address our problems?

What follows is a list of our common gripes with D&D. I'm not listing them to bag on the system, because it's a fine game, it's just not suited to our tastes. Please describe how Arcana Evolved, Blue Rose, and Grim Tales handles these specific issues:

Turn Undead: does it exist? (never liked it, weird subsystem)
Alignment: does it exist? do the rules depend on it?
Healing magic: is it common? is the game built on the assumption that it is?
Teleport/Ressurection: are they cheap or easily had? is the game built on the assumption that they are? (we never played a game past far beyond L9 for this reason. In our experience, the game's plot invariably changes to focus on how to deal with these two factors)
Five foot steps/standard action/full actions: do they exist? (caused no end of book-shuffling and "no you can't take a five-foot-step there, you already moved before your standard action")
Attacks of Opportunity: Do they exist? (again with the book-shuffling)
Saving Throws: do they exist? (we often wondered why one needs a Dex check, a Tumble skill check, and a Reflex save check in the same system)
Magic items: well-integrated into core rules, including crafting? (we disliked 3x category-based crafting system, and were somewhat satisfied with Artificer's Handbook, but in the end it felt like we were playtesting it)
The "dodge" feat style: This one feat gave us so much gas that it gets its own category. Are there inherent modifiers to characters that are not situational (cover) or environmental (fog)? Do I have to dig through the character's special ability list to find extra modifiers, or can I just see the target number and try to hit it (counting fog, cover, etc).
Necessity for a character generator: We all have jobs, and I don't have the time to spend an hour just on the stats of a gonna-die NPC. Are there tools that make it quick, or is it simple enough that it won't take as long? (I realize that it's not always an hour. Just take 3.x and call it a base, and then compare creation of mid-level characters compared to it)

Finally, please don't mention C&C. I'll pick up the revised C&C PHB when it comes out.

Thanks much.

 

[Henry]

I'll go with GT and AU, and someone else can do BR:

Please describe how Arcana Evolved, Blue Rose, and Grim Tales handles these specific issues:
Turn Undead: does it exist? (never liked it, weird subsystem)

GT: Turn undead uses D&D's system - pulled directly from it.
AU: Has no turning of undead: Undead exist, but are rare and usually sentient.

Alignment: does it exist? do the rules depend on it?

GT: Uses allegiances (from d20 modern; you can go to the Modern SRD on WotC's site to find out more.
AU: NO ALIGNMENTS. You are what you do, good or ill.

Healing magic: is it common? is the game built on the assumption that it is?

GT: Magic in general is more difficult than D&D, and spells cause STR or CON damage. Heal Skill fixes hit points to a limited degree.
AU: Plenty of healing magic - every caster has it, but there's two kinds: Transfer wounds spells which heal you but deal non-lethal damage to the caster, and Battle Healing, which heals less but leaves scars behind (flavor text).

Teleport/Ressurection: are they cheap or easily had? is the game built on the assumption that they are?

GT: See magic system above; a teleport spell not cast by a caster AT LEAST 12th level and skilled at spellcasting can KILL him.
AU:Teleports are available, but follow "ley lines;" you can't just go where you want. Better description in the book.

Five foot steps/standard action/full actions: do they exist?

Yes in AU and GT, but I've never had a problem adjudicating these: Feel free to start another thread if you'd like some assistance getting the feel of those - I've never had a player yet I couldn't teach.

Attacks of Opportunity: Do they exist?

Yes to both GT and AU, and see me for explanation as above.

Saving Throws: do they exist?

Yes to both GT and AU (and BR, if memory serves).

Magic items: well-integrated into core rules, including crafting?

both GT and AU use systems similar to D&D, but not identical. It's really a complex question, but GT takes the spell damage into account, and AU is closer to D&D than GT is in feel.

The "dodge" feat style: This one feat gave us so much gas that it gets its own category. Are there inherent modifiers to characters that are not situational (cover) or environmental (fog)? Do I have to dig through the character's special ability list to find extra modifiers, or can I just see the target number and try to hit it (counting fog, cover, etc).

You completely lost me here. Both GT and AU have the Dodge feat, and both systems also have feats based on it that apply to different situations. (AU for example has "compensate for size" which gives you a +1 to hit and AC for each size category your opponent is bigger than you). Perhaps more explanation?

Necessity for a character generator: We all have jobs, and I don't have the time to spend an hour just on the stats of a gonna-die NPC. Are there tools that make it quick, or is it simple enough that it won't take as long? (I realize that it's not always an hour. Just take 3.x and call it a base, and then compare creation of mid-level characters compared to it)

If D&D 3E is X, then GT is going to be X times 1.5, and AU is going to be very, very close to X. The feats and talents in GT allow for LOTS of customizeability, but it draws on three to five separate sources for its pool, which means you've got a LOT to wade through if you want to whip up a character in 10 minutes.

Finally, please don't mention C&C. I'll pick up the revised C&C PHB when it comes out.

I won't discuss it, but having read it recently I'll say, given your concerns, it does sound closer to what your group is looking for.

Good luck!

Henry

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Speaking for GT, since I don't have Blue Rose, and I don't know what (if anything) has changed with Arcana Evolved.

Turn Undead: does it exist? (never liked it, weird subsystem)

Essentially the same as the PHB, although it is three talents rather than a class feature - Turn Undead, Command and Destroy ('Turn' being a pre-req for the latter two)

Alignment: does it exist? do the rules depend on it?

No, although it would be easy enough to add if you needed to. Note that if you include spells such as 'Detect Evil' or 'Protection From Chaos' you'll have to decide how they work.

Healing magic: is it common? is the game built on the assumption that it is?
Teleport/Ressurection: are they cheap or easily had? is the game built on the assumption that they are? (we never played a game past far beyond L9 for this reason. In our experience, the game's plot invariably changes to focus on how to deal with these two factors)

Magic is as common or as rare as you want. There are feats and talents that allow the character to cast spells. Instead of the 'fire and forget' system of D&D, GT uses 'spell burn' where a caster has the potential to take damage every time they cast a spell. Casting is not automatically successful, damage can be either subdual or ability, etc. It is near-perfect for just about any type of game, because just by changing a couple little details you can use the same mechanics for rare-but-powerful magic or common-but-wimpy magic, or most anything in between.

No character knows any spells automatically, there are no spell lists as in D&D. The DM decides what spells the character will have access to, and then makes them available in game as he deems necessary (eg, the party finds a tome of forgotten lore, and the caster learns how to cast 'Evard's Tentacles').

Note that the one thing GT won't do is produce casters as powerful as those in stock D&D.

Five foot steps/standard action/full actions: do they exist? (caused no end of book-shuffling and "no you can't take a five-foot-step there, you already moved before your standard action")
Attacks of Opportunity: Do they exist? (again with the book-shuffling)
Saving Throws: do they exist? (we often wondered why one needs a Dex check, a Tumble skill check, and a Reflex save check in the same system)

Pretty much standard d20.

Magic items: well-integrated into core rules, including crafting? (we disliked 3x category-based crafting system, and were somewhat satisfied with Artificer's Handbook, but in the end it felt like we were playtesting it)

No magic save what the DM provides. GT is designed for low magic settings. Low magic generally proscribes characters making their own magic items.

The "dodge" feat style: This one feat gave us so much gas that it gets its own category. Are there inherent modifiers to characters that are not situational (cover) or environmental (fog)? Do I have to dig through the character's special ability list to find extra modifiers, or can I just see the target number and try to hit it (counting fog, cover, etc).

Of course there are character-based modifiers. Armor, for one. To somewhat offset the lack of magic items, characters also get a class-based defensive bonus. Various feats and talents apply as well. Not sure what you mean by 'Dodge feat style' -- dodge is pretty much the definition of a situational modifier.

Necessity for a character generator: We all have jobs, and I don't have the time to spend an hour just on the stats of a gonna-die NPC. Are there tools that make it quick, or is it simple enough that it won't take as long? (I realize that it's not always an hour. Just take 3.x and call it a base, and then compare creation of mid-level characters compared to it)

Probably harder to generate NPCs if you feel the need to get really detailed, as GT offers a lot more flexibility in terms of character creation. Frankly, though, I've never bought into the complaint that making NPCs takes a long time in D&D except at the highest levels. And it's usually magic and gear that complicates things, which wouldn't be an issue in GT.

GT is really better described as a toolkit than a game -- you can't say 'Oh, we're playing Grim Tales' the way you can say 'We're playing D&D' and have everyone know more or less what you mean. GT can do 20s pulp action, post-apoc mutants, pretty much anything. I would say that as it stands, GT wouldn't be appropriate for a high-magic, stock D&D type campaign, or a really high-tech sci-fi space opera, but pretty much everything else would work. If you have a cool idea for setting or campaign, and want an elegant rule-set to run it but don't want to drift too far from d20, then GT is perfect.

FWIW, Arcana Unearthed/Evolved is much more D&D than not -- pretty much a collection of new races, classes, a tweaked magic system. 'Unearthed' was very good, and by all accounts 'Evolved' adds a ton of goodies without changing the basics. But it's still mechanically pretty much the same as D&D.

Blue Rose I think has a preview PDF or rules-lite version available for download. From what I've read, it's much less detailed mechanically, which may appeal to you. However, it's fairly different rules-wise, which would make adapting material from other sources more difficult.

 

[Clint]

First, thanks much for the replies. This is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.

You're both right about my Dodge feat question. It's poorly worded. Let me try again:

Armor and size-modifiers are easy to remember because it doesn't change over the course of a combat. Hence, a combatant's stats reflect these modifiers, so you can basically forget it (mechanically, per round) once the character is statted up. Same goes for Weapon Focus and magic weapons and the like. Dodge turns on and off for each combatant, sometimes for each round and frequently only against certain other combatants. Hence, my group forgot it frequently, probably more than three out of four times. The way that it differs from, for example, Power Attack is that Power Attack is used on the player's action, and is not beneficial 100% of the time. It's an option and not a step. There is no reason not to use Dodge every round, but the feat never works automatically. So it's kind of like an extra step in that character's combat. I'd like to avoid design decisions like these.

Of course, now I'm getting so pedantic that it's silly. But was that more clear?

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Ah. Ok. Yes, Dodge works the same way. However, probably the closest thing to a universal house rule is that Dodge is a straight +1, since pretty much everyone had the same problem. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any thing else that fits that pattern, although obviously some situational modifiers can vary from round to round, or even within the same round (eg you might have cover from one enemy but not another).

 

[Kenson]

Here's how the True20 System in Blue Rose handles things:

Turn Undead: does it exist?
No. There's one undead-affecting feat (Purifying Light) which creates a barrier of sorts, but no undead-turning abilities.

Alignment: does it exist? do the rules depend on it?
There's a variant alignment system wherein each character has two natures: a Light nature and a Shadow nature. Alignment is based on which nature is most dominant (Light, Shadow, or Twilight, an even balance of the two). The primary focus of Alignment is on the regaining of Conviction points.

Healing magic: is it common? is the game built on the assumption that it is?
Somewhat less common than D&D. The arcana system has healing abilities, but they require a bit more effort than in D&D. They aren't as common as every 1st level cleric.

Teleport/Ressurection: are they cheap or easily had?
No teleportation. Raising the dead is a very high-level healer feat, and of only limited usefulness (the subject can't have been dead for long).

Five foot steps/standard action/full actions: do they exist??
No five-foot steps, since there's no tactical movement; actions are broken down into free/move/standard/full for ease of explaining how long an action takes and how much you can do in a round.

Attacks of Opportunity: Do they exist?
No attacks of opportunity.

Saving Throws: do they exist?
Yes, the standard three (Fortitude, Reflex, and Will) plus a Toughness save for damage.

Magic items: well-integrated into core rules, including crafting?
Magic items are rare in the setting, so the core rules have nothing on how to make them. There will be some guidelines in the Blue Rose Companion but magic items will still be rare.

The "dodge" feat style: This one feat gave us so much gas that it gets its own category. Are there inherent modifiers to characters that are not situational (cover) or environmental (fog)?
There are feats which provide combat modifiers, if that's what you're asking, but it's fairly easy to include those modifiers in the stats on the character sheet.

Necessity for a character generator
No character generator, but character creation is fairly simple and quick in my experience, since the complex stuff from D&D (hit points, skill points, etc.) is all taken out, and characters get one feat per level after 1st.

You can find plenty of preview material, including a set of fast-play rules, at www.bluerose.greenronin.com

Good luck finding the right system for you and your group!

 

[Henry]

...And just how would you know all this, Mr. Kenson?

Can't get a better explanation than from the guy who wrote it.

As for dodge, it's one of those feats that you really wouldn't have any trouble house-ruling to be a straight +1 AC for all opponents. IMO, it would not unbalance the game in any way to do so.

 

[DonAdam]

If you would like to have a look at the Summa Fantasia playtest documents, shoot me an email (address in sig). Your first post reads like a commercial for Summa.

Also note that with GT some of what you're worried about is optional in that you can just ban certain talents and such.

I look forward to seeing Blue Rose, but it hasn't showed up at my FLGS yet. Might be time to make a discountrpg order for that and AE soon...

 

[Kenson]

As for dodge, it's one of those feats that you really wouldn't have any trouble house-ruling to be a straight +1 AC for all opponents. IMO, it would not unbalance the game in any way to do so.

Good to know, since that's how Dodge works in Blue Rose: straight-up +1 dodge bonus to Defense, good across the board.

 

[Henry]

Good to know, since that's how Dodge works in Blue Rose: straight-up +1 dodge bonus to Defense, good across the board.

Yeah, I know - ever since I saw it in M&M, and thought about it for two seconds, I realized how silly it was to worry about it. It's not like Toughness applies to one type of damage, or something.