Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[Slaved]

I don't think you can change stances, just maneuvers at every even level starting from 4th.

Really? wow, weird.

 

[Bivotar]

Really? wow, weird.

It is true. I myself thought it was weird as well. There are no 2nd level stances so a 4th level warblade has to pick another 1st level stance. Unless it's possible for the player to not pick a stance at 4th level and wait to pick it at 5th level. Not sure if that's against the rules or not and if it's unbalancing at all.

 

[Slaved]

So the warblade gets 4 stances total and 2 of them are trapped at being first level? wow

Anyway, I wrote this up a bit ago.

[hide]Barbarian Barblader
Male dwarf Barbarian 5
CN Medium Humanoid
Init +1; Senses Listen +, Spot +; darkvision 60 ft.
Languages Common, Dwarven
AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 19, +4 AC against giants, uncanny dodge (Dex +1, +1 Breastplate armor +6, +1 Deflection, +1 natural)
Hp 58 (5 HD)
Resist stability
Saves Fort +9(+11 against poison), Ref +4, Will +2; +2 on saves against spells and spell-like effects
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 greatsword +10 (2d6+5/x3)
Atk Options +1 on attacks against orcs and goblinoids, battle ardor
Base Atk +5, Grp +8
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds
Special: Fast movement (factored in above), illiteracy, rage 2/day, uncanndy dodge, trap sense +1, improved uncanny dodge
Abilities Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6
SQ stonecutting, weapon aptitude
Feats Weapon Focus (great sword), power attack
Skills Tumble (cross classed) 4 ranks = +5, listen 8 ranks = +8, Survival 8 ranks = +8, etc
Possesions Breastplate +1, greatsword +1, Ring of Protection +1, cloak of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1

I kept the same stats although I really hated doing so. A low dex for a guy who is relying on the lighter armors seems very wrong to me. I would go for taking 2 points of con off of this guy and knocking his dex up to 14 and making his strength a 16. At level 8 he will then have an 18 in strength. He will lose 5hp but the +1 to AC and other benefits are worth that easily.

I would suggest that you get a cloak of protection +1, that way the saves are the same again.

Picked up ranks in tumble cross classed to make that part closer.

While raging and power attacking for 2 the barbs attack bonus is the same as the warblades and he does 2d6+12 damage. Over the course of two rounds it is 4d6+24 damage with an average of 38. To use insightful strike every other round that would mean using a regular attack in between so the warblades damage would be d20+d10+27 with an average of 43. Pretty close, optimal useage of power attack requires a bit of math and knowledge of the opponents AC. If the barbarian can charge the first round he can up this damage by 4 and keep the same attack bonus which makes the damage totals nearly equal but the barbarian has 2 less AC than the warblade for a round.

A +2 str item was mentioned. This would give the warblade +2 damage and give the barbarian +4 to damage in this comparison.

So while the barbarian has rages these guys are on the same footing. When not raging the barbarian has more AC but does less damage. Against very high or very low AC foes the barbarain can come out ahead because of power attack but those cannot be counted on.

It looks from this that what pushes the warblade ahead of the barbarian in general comes down to a few things. The first is the +5 concentration item while the barb has no options to boost damage for the same slot, it might be too much to allow this for the price listed. Next up being able to do it all of the combats in the day instead of the barbarians only two is a big advantage. As a third I don't much care for the character being able to use the blade meditation feat without using the weapon from that devotion.

Or we could go extra rage and reckless rage. That gives 4 per day, which makes it more or less for every encounter, and makes the damage potential higher normally. Unfortunately without power attack there is not a way to trade in the higher attack bonus for damage to compare the totals directly. I will leave that for others to decide, especially if they take into account swapping out some constitution for some dexterity.[/hide]

 

[NilesB]

I kept the same stats although I really hated doing so. A low dex for a guy who is relying on the lighter armors seems very wrong to me. I would go for taking 2 points of con off of this guy and knocking his dex up to 14

Trade in 2 points of int for dex.

 

[dvvega]

Got a reply from Customer Service regarding the critical thing and they state that it is in fact a replacement weapon damage thus can be multiplied. I am now going to put in a house rule regarding this since it is definately way too much.

 

[sithramir]

So the warblade gets 4 stances total and 2 of them are trapped at being first level? wow

Anyway, I wrote this up a bit ago.

[hide]Barbarian Barblader
Male dwarf Barbarian 5
CN Medium Humanoid
Init +1; Senses Listen +, Spot +; darkvision 60 ft.
Languages Common, Dwarven
AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 19, +4 AC against giants, uncanny dodge (Dex +1, +1 Breastplate armor +6, +1 Deflection, +1 natural)
Hp 58 (5 HD)
Resist stability
Saves Fort +9(+11 against poison), Ref +4, Will +2; +2 on saves against spells and spell-like effects
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 greatsword +10 (2d6+5/x3)
Atk Options +1 on attacks against orcs and goblinoids, battle ardor
Base Atk +5, Grp +8
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds
Special: Fast movement (factored in above), illiteracy, rage 2/day, uncanndy dodge, trap sense +1, improved uncanny dodge
Abilities Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6
SQ stonecutting, weapon aptitude
Feats Weapon Focus (great sword), power attack
Skills Tumble (cross classed) 4 ranks = +5, listen 8 ranks = +8, Survival 8 ranks = +8, etc
Possesions Breastplate +1, greatsword +1, Ring of Protection +1, cloak of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1

I kept the same stats although I really hated doing so. A low dex for a guy who is relying on the lighter armors seems very wrong to me. I would go for taking 2 points of con off of this guy and knocking his dex up to 14 and making his strength a 16. At level 8 he will then have an 18 in strength. He will lose 5hp but the +1 to AC and other benefits are worth that easily.

I would suggest that you get a cloak of protection +1, that way the saves are the same again.

Picked up ranks in tumble cross classed to make that part closer.

While raging and power attacking for 2 the barbs attack bonus is the same as the warblades and he does 2d6+12 damage. Over the course of two rounds it is 4d6+24 damage with an average of 38. To use insightful strike every other round that would mean using a regular attack in between so the warblades damage would be d20+d10+27 with an average of 43. Pretty close, optimal useage of power attack requires a bit of math and knowledge of the opponents AC. If the barbarian can charge the first round he can up this damage by 4 and keep the same attack bonus which makes the damage totals nearly equal but the barbarian has 2 less AC than the warblade for a round.

A +2 str item was mentioned. This would give the warblade +2 damage and give the barbarian +4 to damage in this comparison.

So while the barbarian has rages these guys are on the same footing. When not raging the barbarian has more AC but does less damage. Against very high or very low AC foes the barbarain can come out ahead because of power attack but those cannot be counted on.

It looks from this that what pushes the warblade ahead of the barbarian in general comes down to a few things. The first is the +5 concentration item while the barb has no options to boost damage for the same slot, it might be too much to allow this for the price listed. Next up being able to do it all of the combats in the day instead of the barbarians only two is a big advantage. As a third I don't much care for the character being able to use the blade meditation feat without using the weapon from that devotion.

Or we could go extra rage and reckless rage. That gives 4 per day, which makes it more or less for every encounter, and makes the damage potential higher normally. Unfortunately without power attack there is not a way to trade in the higher attack bonus for damage to compare the totals directly. I will leave that for others to decide, especially if they take into account swapping out some constitution for some dexterity.[/hide]

This guy can do some decent damage as well. He has two fight two-handed which my character doesn't. That means mine could have a higher AC (I just don't care to wield shields). My guy could easily add another 2 or 3 to his AC from that. He would only lose one point of damage on his second round.

Secondly, what happens if your guy needs to make a reflex or will save with your saves? Pretty screwed. Hold person could end your life. My character has a +22 in those saves without a chance of failure.

Your guy has a +10 attack the same as my character so he can't power attack to increase damage without lowering his to hit. He can charge the first round. Oops you're assuming he uses a rage. The point is he can only do this in one or two encounters. Or he could remove one of his feats to get more rages which lowers his attack or damage.

He doesn't get weapon aptitude like my character who can choose to specialize in any weapon.

My character can ignore DR from any creature with his other strike OR break down a any inanimate object given time.

My tumble ability is higher. In fact I put 5 cross-class ranks into balance which I believe is a synergy +2 to tumble to bring mine to an 11. Nearly a guaranteed tumble at this level now.

He could use blade meditation and choose another weapon. I just copied this from the Tome of Blood example and didn't look up another weapon.

Your character needs a two-handed weapon to help get you're damage output. I can pick up any weapon I find an in an hour be doing the same damage for the most part.

The funny thing is it just gets better. Next level I get Weapon Specializion for +2 damage to help cut the gap. At ninth I can get the feat from Complete Adventurer? that gives +2 damage for slashing weapons if you're a fighter with +8 BAB. I'm slowly closing the gap in those regards (did I mention his concentration is going up adding 1 more point of damage every time he levels?). At that point he's got other abilities coming to him as well.

I also thought about taking a shadow maneuver at 9th level in lieu of +2 damage to give myself the ability to step through the shadows as a move action. Now my guy can shadow jump 50' and then do 1d20+22 (or whatever it is at the level he gets this).

Another negative is that a ray of enfeeblement nearly crushes you're character. My character would simply lose some attack bonus (and no damage reduction for the first attack). Any other spell any my character has great saves (we both had good fort).

My character got the speed of your character from a stance (or gets it at 6th level). He also gets uncanny dodge. The only two benefits of a barbarian at that point is improved uncanny dodge and rage (which he needed to get close in damage output).

Oh and my character can read so he'll taunt your character by writing funny notes about him and passing it around to all the other fighter types!

Basically, your character does a lot of damage but warblades just get a lot more benefits which is what makes me angry. Yes my character was power gamed to max out damage with concentration but that's because there's no reason not to. I just feel it's a bit overpowerful due to this. If they come out with a few more classes of this power then I guess I just say. Ok the base classes are just weaker now other than cross-classing for abilities and that's that.

 

[Slaved]

Trade in 2 points of int for dex.

Will do, and apparently the hide tags do not work here

Barbarian Barblader
Male dwarf Barbarian 5
CN Medium Humanoid
Init +2; Senses Listen +, Spot +; darkvision 60 ft.
Languages Common, Dwarven
AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 19, +4 AC against giants, uncanny dodge (Dex +2, +1 Breastplate armor +6, +1 Deflection, +1 natural)
Hp 58 (5 HD)
Resist stability
Saves Fort +9(+11 against poison), Ref +4, Will +2; +2 on saves against spells and spell-like effects
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 greatsword +10 (2d6+5/x3)
Atk Options +1 on attacks against orcs and goblinoids, battle ardor
Base Atk +5, Grp +8
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds
Special: Fast movement (factored in above), illiteracy, rage 2/day, uncanndy dodge, trap sense +1, improved uncanny dodge
Abilities Str 16, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 6
SQ stonecutting
Feats Weapon Focus (great sword), power attack
Skills Tumble (cross classed) 4 ranks = +6, listen 8 ranks = +8, Survival 8 ranks = +8, etc
Possesions Breastplate +1, greatsword +1, Ring of Protection +1, cloak of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1


So now the barbarian has 3 more AC than the warblade, 1 while raging. The warblade could use a shield, nonmagical right now, but would lose damage.

Plus earlier I apparently forgot to add in crits! Something is wrong with me. The damage numbers go to, over a 2 round period, 42 for the barbarian and 44 for the warblade. Barely distinguishable against critable foes. If the warblade uses a shield his damage is barely effected, which is great news for people who want to use sword and board techniques, and it drops to 43. Still basically the same.

The warblade is better at the occasional reflex save, much better in fact, but it slows down his damage greatly. Basically he is trading 22 or 23 damage, depending on shield use, for a higher reflex save against a single reflex based attack. Right now though the barbarian is likely to have a better will save. Not by a lot, but better while raging. Hold person still ends either of their lives, but the barbarian has a better time with it most of the time.

The barbarian moves faster currently. It is possible for the warblade to match this at level 10, but that is a long way off from here.

There were some other comments that could be responded to if higher level characters were made to compare. Do not jump the gun sithramir! We are doing fine so far, we just have to go slowly.


Oh, and just because here is the barbarian who can pick up any weapon and immediately use it just as well
Barbarian Barblader
Male dwarf Barbarian 5
CN Medium Humanoid
Init +3; Senses Listen +, Spot +; darkvision 60 ft.
Languages Common, Dwarven
AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 19, +4 AC against giants, uncanny dodge (Dex +3, +1 Breastplate armor +6, +1 Deflection, +1 natural)
Hp 53 (5 HD)
Resist stability
Saves Fort +9(+11 against poison), Ref +5, Will +2; +2 on saves against spells and spell-like effects
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 greatsword +9 (2d6+5/x3)
Atk Options +1 on attacks against orcs and goblinoids, battle ardor
Base Atk +5, Grp +8
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds
Special: Fast movement (factored in above), illiteracy, rage 4/day, uncanndy dodge, trap sense +1, improved uncanny dodge
Abilities Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 6
SQ stonecutting
Feats extra rage, reckless rage
Skills Tumble (cross classed) 4 ranks = +7, listen 8 ranks = +8, Survival 8 ranks = +8, etc
Possesions Breastplate +1, greatsword +1, Ring of Protection +1, cloak of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1

Now he can rage every encounter of the day basically, although this still has some drawbacks which makes the warblades version of the abilities better.

But while raging his attack spread is +12 to hit and 2d6+10 for a two round average of 37. The warblade is doing 44, assuming no shield, but with 2 points less on the attack bonus. Depending on the AC of the opponent this could mean that the average damage is higher for either of them.

Edited.....
Oh yeah, the warblade and the barbarian should also have appropriate ranged weapons. I think that would mean composite longbows for each with +3 str on them. The barbarian might want a stronger one, because raging and ranged combat is funny, but I am not sure. In these examples the barbarian is better at ranged, but only by a +1 or +2 bonus respectively. The warblade could spend an hour moving his weapon focus, which is a great ability, but then he will be an extra point of attack bonus behind in melee.

 

[Nail]

Unfortunately WOTC has decided to not errata some skills into the fighter. Who knows why. But that does not mean that everyone else should suffer for it.

"Everyone's" not suffering per se. The Warblade just gets too many skill points, based on a comparison of the core classes. If you (or I!) want to give everyone more skill points .....that's entirely beside the point!

I notice that you did not comment on my reasoning behind the d12 hd though so I will try another route. Why does the barbarian have the d12 hd in your opinion? The barbarian also has 4 skill points and a better skill list than the fighter.

....and Barbarian has fewer other options, namely feats, so having more skill points doesn't throw off the balance.

The Bbn has a d12 because it is a class based on a low AC. A Warblade is not constained in such a way.

I think that by ""core classes"" you actually mean ""fighter"". I also think that you further mean ""certain types of melee fighters"". That looks to be a long way away from the words you actually used though.

That's because I did not use -- or mean to use -- those words. I mean "Core Clasess, which include Bbn, Brd, Clr, Drd, Ftr, Mnk, Pal, Rgr, Rog, Sor, and Wiz." And I most certainly did not mean "certain types of melee fighters".

Are the core classes perfectly balanced with respect to each other? IMO, they need a bit more tweaking. But is WB well outside the range of balance with respect to the core classes? IMO, yes...subject to play-testing evidence to the contrary.

One of my players is currently working on that for me.

 

[Nail]

.... The warblade could spend an hour moving his weapon focus, which is a great ability, but then he will be an extra point of attack bonus behind in melee.

BTW, Slaved, thanks for these write-ups! I wish I had more time right now to look them over in detail.

Do you have a spreadsheet that can calculate average damage per roudn against a given AC? I do, as well as the average AC for comparably CR opponents in the core rules. It's helpful in this kind of comparison.

 

[chaos2600]

regarding Slaved's post...I seem to recall that the Warblade's not proficient with the comp longbow or ranged martial weapons in general. My book's at home though so I can't look up whether I'm on crack or not though.