Warden L6 Utility "Bears Endurance"

[S'mon]

Hm... I don't think it's RAW, and it weakens the power, but thinking about it I like the idea of giving the healing before resolving the damage. That way it doesn't always prevent death.

 

[KarinsDad]

The PC finds a brilliant scintilla of time where their HP is 0 or lower but they do not suffer the additional effects of that state (not unconscious, auras and zones don't cancel, etc.) because they are not unconscious when this trigger point is hit, the interrupt can still function and since it heals, they never suffer the unconscious condition.

On second thought, I agree with you. "An immediate interrupt lets you jump in when a certain trigger condition arises, acting before the trigger resolves." In this case, the trigger is going to 0 hit points.

So, the PC goes to -5 hit points. The trigger resolves. His healing surge heals 30, so he's at 30 hit points.

 

[DracoSuave]

On second thought, I agree with you. "An immediate interrupt lets you jump in when a certain trigger condition arises, acting before the trigger resolves." In this case, the trigger is going to 0 hit points.

So, the PC goes to -5 hit points. The trigger resolves. His healing surge heals 30, so he's at 30 hit points.

Wrong. The PC heals 30 hit points, then takes the damage that would bring him below zero.

I can see an argument for having the interrupt happen in the middle of the attacker's power's resolution, however there's no way an interrupt is going to happen AFTER the trigger. That's what reactions do.

 

[Blood Jester]

..You're confusing Interrupts with how triggered Free Actions work. Reactions work similiarly as well... they only occur after an action or single square of movement.

Nope, I'm not in the least confused.

The RAW are very clear to me, and I am very clear on how an Interrupt works in relation to it's trigger.

I also understand the different parts on an action that can be interelated, but *different* and *discreet* events in themselves.

If it was intended that the trigger be the actual attack that caused the damage, that is what it would say.

"Trigger: You are hit by an attack that would drop you to zero or fewer hit points."

Not:

"Trigger: You drop to 0 hit points or fewer"

These are very different statements.

 

[Istar]

Nope, I'm not in the least confused.

The RAW are very clear to me, and I am very clear on how an Interrupt works in relation to it's trigger.

I also understand the different parts on an action that can be interelated, but *different* and *discreet* events in themselves.

If it was intended that the trigger be the actual attack that caused the damage, that is what it would say.

"Trigger: You are hit by an attack that would drop you to zero or fewer hit points."

Not:

"Trigger: You drop to 0 hit points or fewer"

These are very different statements.

YES.

Otherwise the power would say something like:

"Trigger: You take damage from an attack".

Surely the specific nature of the trigger should actually mean something.

 

[DracoSuave]

How the sam heck can Bear's Endurance heal you from below zero when it's frikken trigger is 'When you drop below zero.' It's nonsense!

If it could, you'd have already dropped below zero which would make it a REACTION. As an INTERRUPT it must occur before the event. If the damage has been resolved, you are below zero, so it must occur before the resolution of damage. There's no 'in the middle of dealing damage'. You are either undamaged, and above zero, or damaged, and below zero.

And, even if you entertain the rediculous notion that you're 'damaged and above zero' you certainly CANNOT entertain the notion that you're simultaneously 'below zero' and 'before you drop below zero.'

Interrupts happen BEFORE their trigger. If Bear's Endurance were to heal you up to 0, then deal the damage, then it's not happening BEFORE you are below zero. Which means you're not executing interrupts correctly AT. ALL.

Interrupt = Before.
Reaction = After.


By the same logic as delivered here, immediate interrupts which move you out of the range of powers that 'hit or miss' you wouldn't work, because the target selection, and rolling to attack have already been done, so you can't invalidate the attack by rendering the conditions of it impossible.

Such an interpretation is patently false. The rules, in fact, give that scenario as its example of how invalidating an action works. If you do something that changes the parameters of an effect on you through immediate interrupt, that immediate interrupt can change how that effect works. The trigger is not speciifc to damage from attacks. Damage from an aura will still trigger this just fine, and it will occur before the damage is applied, because it can't happen after.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wrong. The PC heals 30 hit points, then takes the damage that would bring him below zero.

Ok, switching sides again.

It's amazing how clear my brain is in the morning and how foggy it is after a rough day at work.

 

[Infiniti2000]

How the sam heck can Bear's Endurance heal you from below zero when it's frikken trigger is 'When you drop below zero.' It's nonsense!

I agree with this part of what you said, but the interrupt occurs before the trigger and NOT before the action that caused the trigger. So, the success of the attack roll and the damage that will be applied is NOT interrupted or invalidated.

 

[Gryph]

How the sam heck can Bear's Endurance heal you from below zero when it's frikken trigger is 'When you drop below zero.' It's nonsense!

If it could, you'd have already dropped below zero which would make it a REACTION. As an INTERRUPT it must occur before the event. If the damage has been resolved, you are below zero, so it must occur before the resolution of damage. There's no 'in the middle of dealing damage'. You are either undamaged, and above zero, or damaged, and below zero.

And, even if you entertain the rediculous notion that you're 'damaged and above zero' you certainly CANNOT entertain the notion that you're simultaneously 'below zero' and 'before you drop below zero.'

Interrupts happen BEFORE their trigger. If Bear's Endurance were to heal you up to 0, then deal the damage, then it's not happening BEFORE you are below zero. Which means you're not executing interrupts correctly AT. ALL.

Interrupt = Before.
Reaction = After.


By the same logic as delivered here, immediate interrupts which move you out of the range of powers that 'hit or miss' you wouldn't work, because the target selection, and rolling to attack have already been done, so you can't invalidate the attack by rendering the conditions of it impossible.

Such an interpretation is patently false. The rules, in fact, give that scenario as its example of how invalidating an action works. If you do something that changes the parameters of an effect on you through immediate interrupt, that immediate interrupt can change how that effect works. The trigger is not speciifc to damage from attacks. Damage from an aura will still trigger this just fine, and it will occur before the damage is applied, because it can't happen after.

This interpretation could lead to the following scenario:

Level 6 Warden with 65 Hit points and is at full health takes a brutal encounter crit that does 70 points of damage. He triggers the utility to avoid being knocked out of the fight in one blow and the DM informs him that it has no effect and he's at -5 hit points.

When asked why, the DM informs him that the utility causes him to be healed before he actually took the damage and since he was at full health the healing surge had no effect, oh and by the way you are down a healing surge.

I understand your reasoning, but I think it is falsly conjoining the action that caused the damage and the effect on a target from receiving damage.

 

[frogged]

How the sam heck can Bear's Endurance heal you from below zero when it's frikken trigger is 'When you drop below zero.' It's nonsense!

If it could, you'd have already dropped below zero which would make it a REACTION. As an INTERRUPT it must occur before the event. If the damage has been resolved, you are below zero, so it must occur before the resolution of damage. There's no 'in the middle of dealing damage'. You are either undamaged, and above zero, or damaged, and below zero.

And, even if you entertain the rediculous notion that you're 'damaged and above zero' you certainly CANNOT entertain the notion that you're simultaneously 'below zero' and 'before you drop below zero.'

Interrupts happen BEFORE their trigger. If Bear's Endurance were to heal you up to 0, then deal the damage, then it's not happening BEFORE you are below zero. Which means you're not executing interrupts correctly AT. ALL.

Interrupt = Before.
Reaction = After.


By the same logic as delivered here, immediate interrupts which move you out of the range of powers that 'hit or miss' you wouldn't work, because the target selection, and rolling to attack have already been done, so you can't invalidate the attack by rendering the conditions of it impossible.

Such an interpretation is patently false. The rules, in fact, give that scenario as its example of how invalidating an action works. If you do something that changes the parameters of an effect on you through immediate interrupt, that immediate interrupt can change how that effect works. The trigger is not speciifc to damage from attacks. Damage from an aura will still trigger this just fine, and it will occur before the damage is applied, because it can't happen after.

Draco, you are incorrect here because of a small misunderstanding. Immediate Interrupts do not occur before their trigger, they occur before their trigger finishes.

"Interrupts An immediate interrupt jumps in when its trigger occurs, taking place before the trigger finishes. If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, the triggering action is lost."
-Rules Compendium pg. 195

So with the trigger "When you drop to 0 hit points or fewer", the power doesn't occur before you are hit, or before you take damage, or before you drop below zero hit points. It occurs before the consequences of being below zero hit points apply.