Warforged slam as secondary natural attack?

[Peter Gibbons]

Warforged have a natural slam attack. The Monster Manual says: "If a creature has both a manufactured weapon and natural weapons, it usually uses its manufactured weapon as its primary attack...and uses its natural weapons as secondary attacks (-5 penalty on attack rolls, and 1/2 Strength bonus on damage rolls)."

The FAQ elaborates on this, saying that: "Wielding a manufactured weapon doesn't prevent a creature from using all its natural weaponry, provided that the creature is using the full attack action and the additional natural weapons are free." It goes on to state that a lizardman, for example, would not get a claw attack with the hand being used to wield a manufactured weapon.

Okay, clear enough so far. Now it gets tricky. The Monster Manual defines a slam attack as: "The creature batters opponents with an appendage dealing bludgeoning damage." My dictionary defines "appendage" as: "A part or organ, such as an arm, leg, tail, or fin, that is joined to the axis or trunk of a body."

So let's say we have a warforged full attacking with a one-handed manufactured weapon, and nothing in his other hand. Clearly, he'd be able to make a secondary slam attack with that free hand.

But what if he's full attacking with a one-handed weapon and carrying a shield in the other hand? Can he still use his legs, or some part of his arm other than his hand, to deliver a secondary slam attack?

If you say no, would your answer be different if he were wielding a two-handed weapon instead of a sword-and-shield type combo?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I say yes, and allow him to do a shoulder slam at any point.

 

[reveal]

I say yes, and allow him to do a shoulder slam at any point.

Agreed. The warforged just takes the standard -5 to make a secondary attack with a natural weapon.

 

[glass]

I have always considered slam attacks (for normal sized creatures who have just one) to use both fists, and therefore require both hands free to execute. It's possible this was an accidental house rule, however.


glass.

 

[darthkilmor]

Okay, clear enough so far. Now it gets tricky. The Monster Manual defines a slam attack as: "The creature batters opponents with an appendage dealing bludgeoning damage." My dictionary defines "appendage" as: "A part or organ, such as an arm, leg, tail, or fin, that is joined to the axis or trunk of a body."

So let's say we have a warforged full attacking with a one-handed manufactured weapon, and nothing in his other hand. Clearly, he'd be able to make a secondary slam attack with that free hand.

I'd say allow it, regardless of whats in his hands. Treat it like a monks unarmed attack, which basically, uses an appendage, as they can still attack with their hands full(ie knees and kicks and whatever else)

 

[dcollins]

But what if he's full attacking with a one-handed weapon and carrying a shield in the other hand? Can he still use his legs, or some part of his arm other than his hand, to deliver a secondary slam attack? If you say no, would your answer be different if he were wielding a two-handed weapon instead of a sword-and-shield type combo?

Personally I rule "no" on this issue. It's not explicit one way or the other in official rules or FAQ. However, my sense of the intent is that you've got one "off-hand" opportunity to potentially add one attack. If your left hand is being used for a second weapon, shield, punching, etc., that's the end of it -- your concentration is entirely taken up and no more attacks can normally be added. There are no WOTC examples in any book anywhere of being able to add more than the one single attack.

For those who say "yes", here's another question: Once a character is attacking right-hand, left-hand, right-kick... do you also allow additional attacks after that point, with left-kick, right-shoulder, left-shoulder, head-butt, etc.?


On a separate but related note (I'm currently playing a Wraforged myself), notice that the description of the slam attack in the Warforged entry actually contradicts the MM natural weapon rule. In the Eberron book, it says that using it in addition to a normal weapon uses the TWF rules (starting at -4/-8 I believe), as though it were a light manufactured weapon.

 

[Infiniti2000]

For those who say "yes", here's another question: Once a character is attacking right-hand, left-hand, right-kick... do you also allow additional attacks after that point, with left-kick, right-shoulder, left-shoulder, head-butt, etc.?

I have no idea about the warforged natural weapon rules, so your second point is probably more relevant than you think. However, without that specific warforged rule, I'd say yes. The question is about weapons, not parts of the body. The creature has one natural weapon, a slam, which could be any appendage; it's not specific. But, he only gets one, so he cannot slam with 5 separate appendages in the same round, but he could slam with them over the course of 5 rounds. As another example, you could design your own monstrous humanoid (that say resembles a human) and give it five slam attacks per round: two arms, two legs, and a head-butt. Unless the description actually says what body part performs the slam attack, though, it could be anyone the creature wants, its choice.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

For those who say "yes", here's another question: Once a character is attacking right-hand, left-hand, right-kick... do you also allow additional attacks after that point, with left-kick, right-shoulder, left-shoulder, head-butt, etc

Absolutely - in the exact same way that a monk gets a right hand, left hand, right kick, left kick, headbutt routine.

In other words, all of that is subsumed in the slam's attack roll, just as parries, voids, hilt strikes, half-swording, etc., is subsumed in a longsword's attack roll.

 

[CronoDekar]

On a separate but related note (I'm currently playing a Wraforged myself), notice that the description of the slam attack in the Warforged entry actually contradicts the MM natural weapon rule. In the Eberron book, it says that using it in addition to a normal weapon uses the TWF rules (starting at -4/-8 I believe), as though it were a second manufactured weapon.

Really? I'm looking in the book at the warforged racial traits and can't seem to find it. Just "A warforged has a natural weapon in the form of a slam attack that deals 1d4 damage." Got a page number on that? (Not saying it doesn't exist, just that I don't see it in the Warforged traits in the ECS.)

But I personally have no qualms with a Warforged using slam as a secondary attack, even with the sword-and-board. Just because their hands are "occupied" doesn't mean they have to use a fist. They're made of metal (and wood) after all!

 

[ARandomGod]

I say yes, and allow him to do a shoulder slam at any point.

Or a head-butt. Or a knee kick to the groin. A slam attack is to natural attacks as monk attacks are to BAB based attacks.