D&D 5E Warlock, Hex, and Short Rests: The Bag of Rats Problem

[Shiroiken]

I guess I didn't phrase it as a question, but the specific issue is whether to allow bag of rats hexing, and how people do / would deal with it in their games. I'm asking all of the questions--is it RAW, is it RAI, is it fun, is it dumb?

RAW is irrelevant, because the DM has final say (allowing each table to figure out what works best). I seriously doubt the RAI included this, as it's outside of what the average player is going to think of, but that doesn't mean it should be automatically discarded (see DM rulings). I find it dumb, but would allow the players to handle the situation (and as I player, I would have a serious problem with the warlock sacrificing a creature to his patron every day).

I wrote the post the way I did to summarize what had already been said in the prior thread as best I could, without all of the bickering. The why if it is that I googled this issue, found the original thread, and found it super frustrating trying to get actual nuggets of information out of that sea of acrimony. So I thought I'd try to extract the content without the acrimony and continue the discussion.

You may have the best of intentions, but you've reopened a thread closed by mods. That almost never ends well.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[jaelis]

But after thinking about it a while, I came to something closer to the view of one of the posts on the first page of that prior thread that got subsequently ignored: "I don't know, torturing rats seems pretty well in line with the attitude of many patrons..."

Aw shucks...

 

[Barolo]

I'm asking all of the questions--is it RAW, is it RAI, is it fun, is it dumb?

Well, I don't think it matters if it is RAW or RAI. By the time the warlock starts getting interested in doing this trick, they are already 5th level, with two 3rd level spells per short rest. Now, either they are not getting some short rests per day, which would make them underperform somewhat, so letting them activate the hex while maintaining their slot just seems like tossing them a bone, or they are getting enough short rests, in which case I think the lone extra slot does not really matter much. Anyhow, the spell demands concentration, which means it usually lasts less than what some might expect, and overall I feel like hex is a little overrated, I have seen warlocks in play making bad choices by prioritizing its use, or just to try to keep the spell up.

In the end, if the whole "macabre" sacrificing of helpless vermin is fun for the table, just roll with it. If not fun for the table but the player feels like doing anyway because they are so convinced they "need" the benefit, just let them activate it for free once per day after long rest, it won't break anything.

 

[Arial Black]

A good aligned warlock only needs one rat, which he knocks out after hexing it.

The 5E rules say that a melee attack with a weapon that takes a creature to zero hit points can render unconscious instead of kill/start death saves.

Hex can be moved any time after the target is reduced to zero hp. The target regaining hp does not take away the ability to move the hex.

So you have a frequently bewildered pet rat with a bandage on its head.

Seriously, the rules allow the bag of rats. If you don't like it, the best solution is to change the spell so that it doesn't require an initial target, not throw all logic and game rules out of the window!

Also, we refer to this as 'bag of rats', but in play I'd be more likely to cast it on the creature we're about to have for breakfast. Less 'rat murderer', more 'short order chef'.

People really get their knickers in a twist by people obeying the rules!

 

[DEFCON 1]

There are two parts to this: First is the game. Second is the story. And there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to ever bother putting the two together if you're going to worry about the bag of rats.

The Long Rest, Short Rest, and spell slots are purely GAME terms and game mechanics. When you "game the system" you are literally doing that-- you are playing the game. You aren't concerned about story, you aren't concerned about narrative, you aren't concerned about what is happening "out in the world". All you are concerned about is using the rules that allow you to have a game rule (spell) active, while regaining a game rule (spell slot) right after, via the use of a game rule (Short Rest).

If you are going to do that... or if you as a DM is going to allow a player to do that... then just do it. The player has a 24 hour spell going "for free" and still has the applicable spell slot. Just own it. Own the fact that the PC has this ability. Be happy about it. Enjoy it. You are using game rules to give your character game power. If you're good with that... then be good with it.

But what you shouldn't do is waste your or anyone else's time in trying to come up with some wishy-washy explanation in the game world why this is happening. Because narratively the whole thing is stupid. "Oh, I just woke up from an overnight sleep and now I'm going to use my magical power on this fuzzy animal before killing it... and then I'm going to lay back down and read a book for an hour so I can get my magic back. And then I'll get back up and continue on with my day."

Why are you bothering trying to justify that? We all know that narratively it's dumb and is a big lame story hoop you are spouting just to make it seem like you're still "in the world". You are trying to exploit the game rules "because the game rules allow you to"... and then trying to tie the story up into a pretzel so you can feel better about it.

Nobody cares. If you want a 24 hour Hex and all of your spell slots for the day... then just take 'em. Do it. Own your desire and stop wasting our time trying to make us not feel like you're "cheating" or "gaming the system".

You know it's lame, we know it's lame, and it's all because the rules were not written so goddamn airtight to stop people from being lame. So be lame. Accept it. Embrace it. Enjoy your spell and your spell slot and have a great day out there adventuring. All while saving us the need to watch you "in-story" walking around with a squeaking bag of rodents.

Hell, I'm surprised WotC didn't bother just making a rat one of the material components for the spell at this point.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Arial Black]

If you are using a spell, you cannot regain it with a short rest.

The problem with this is that it is simply not true.

It's a rule you made up, and what's worse is that the reason you made it up is to nerf a player.

 

[Warpiglet]

The problem with this is that it is simply not true.

It's a rule you made up, and what's worse is that the reason you made it up is to nerf a player.

Is that why I cannot recall anything that says this anywhere?

To the OP: First of all, it obviates the rat issue. Secondly, for all of the complaints about DM fiat, (of which I do not subscribe coming from AD&D! and being able to tolerate lots of it!), this is a time to lean on it. The DM has the power to shape the game to the preferences of the players. Wow. The DM is powerful and not totally beholden to a law library completed for entertainment and make-believe!

I do not say this with any malice at all. We have occasionally seen things as cheesy, talked with DM (we are all friends outside of gaming) and poof! Limited wish changes our game!

Go forth and have fun with whatever solution you find, which is not better or worse than the ones other groups find (if you like it, of course).

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*