D&D 5E Warlock, Hex, and Short Rests: The Bag of Rats Problem

[Pathkeeper24601]

I disagree strongly with that last line, but it's not a big deal. We're mostly on the same page here, I just like to know folks' reasoning on stuff.

Well, that is more my experience, but I am in a low market area with on average 14/week at AL on Saturday. I usually recommend most new players ignore the internet and guides until they get a few characters under their belt they way they want to play them. Really like what happens when people focus on what they want to do over what others say they have to do.

 

[Darkness]

Your opinion has been noted and filed in the appropriate receptacle.

... Good to see you are finally being honest about it rather than nattering on about RAW to justify your preference. ...

I know most of us could probably use a really long rest from threads about this topic, but please keep it civil when posting.

 

[Arial Black]

2. Sleeping is not part of the "complete list" in the PHB, which proves that that "complete list" is not in fact complete, but guidelines and groundwork for the types of things that....CAN (including but not limited to)....stop concentration.

Sleeping is on the list!

"Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die."

In D&D 5E, if you are asleep then you have the Incapacitated condition, because creatures with the Unconscious condition are also Incapacitated.

While IRL there are things that make 'asleep' and 'unconscious' non-identical, in D&D being asleep means that you have the Unconscious condition for the duration that you sleep.

 

[Arial Black]

Same here. I would not allow a short rest right after a long rest. The whole point of a short rest is to get a breather and regain some energy. If you just finished a long rest and haven't done anything to expend energy, then a short rest would do nothing. THAT seems way too metagamey for me.

As you say, if you just finished a long rest and haven't done anything to expend energy then a short rest would do nothing. True in game mechanics AND in the in-game reality.

However, if you just finished a long rest and you have done something to expend energy then a short rest would let you regain that spent energy, according to both the rules and the in-game reality.

If you expend spell slots then you have expended exactly the kind of energy that, RAW, a short rest regains, and this also makes perfect sense in-game.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

You don't think casting a spell and killing a creature are sufficient to end a rest? (If the PC's want it to end their rest, I mean.)

Technically I suppose, as long as it takes you less than 600 combat rounds to beat the rat down, you could just continue the long rest afterwards.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Technically I suppose, as long as it takes you less than 600 combat rounds to beat the rat down, you could just continue the long rest afterwards.

At what point does the long rest end simply because time has passed? Surely the long rest ends when the party has spent 8 hours resting, and are up and about? If they spend three days camping, is that whole three days a long rest? What if they hunt and hike and such? Does the rest end when they break camp?

If they hunt first thing in the morning, how is that part of the long rest?

 

[Mercule]

I don't mean to paint all Warlock players (or for that matter, Power Gamers) with one brush, but in my experience, the only people who fight for the most-generous ruling here (that you have Hex going all the time with all your slots and anything less is nerfing the Warlock)... like to play Warlocks (or worse, Warlock dips) because the result is overpowered?

I typically DM. I'm on the "pro Hex" side because it makes sense to me, within my understanding of RAW and RAI. I don't see anything supporting the idea that a spell slot is "occupied" and feel that doing so would be against the spirit of a short-rest balanced class.

Really, I think hex would be generally balanced as a class ability instead of a spell. The main reason why it's a spell is most likely to eat up concentration (which, IMO, would be bad to start using for non-spell things). The 1/8/24 hour duration also turns the spell into an ability that changes its recharge from short rest to long rest to always on. Yes, the spell slot is a cost, but it's a wonky one because it rapidly turns into a cost only if you completely fail to defeat your target and just seems weird.

If someone wanted to carry a bag-o-rats, I'd probably let them but they'd always have a slightly creepy/crazy vibe. If they wanted to do that and take a short rest before actually adventuring, well, it doesn't really break game balance, but it definitely qualifies as "gaming the system" which usually earns my ire. I'd rather not play than play with a punk rules lawyer who is more interested in playing the letter of the law than the spirit -- I'd probably just tell them that it's all part of the long rest until they actually break camp and head to the "dungeon".

As a player, I don't think I could bring myself to abuse the short rest mechanic and wouldn't be inclined to do the bag-o-rats, but I could see creating a character who did do the rat sacrifice to play up the creepy/kooky factor in a humorous way. If someone else was doing it in an entitled fashion, I'd most likely call them out and tell them to play in the spirit of an RPG. If the group, as a whole, supported that kind of behavior, I'd absolutely walk.

At a table where hex still took up a slot during a short rest, I'd either not take it or not play a Warlock. I think it does unnecessarily depower/nerf the spell. But, that bothers me far less than the bag-o-rats plus short rest before adventuring trick.

There are really a couple of different conversations, here. One is what my ruling would be and why. The other is how I view the more extreme ends of the argument. Even though I agree more with the pro-rat faction's interpretation of the rules (seriously, I typed that?), they have stepped into poor form and entitled rules lawyer territory much more often than the anti-rat faction over the course of this conversation.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

At what point does the long rest end simply because time has passed? Surely the long rest ends when the party has spent 8 hours resting, and are up and about? If they spend three days camping, is that whole three days a long rest? What if they hunt and hike and such? Does the rest end when they break camp?

If they hunt first thing in the morning, how is that part of the long rest?

On a serious note, I'd view a long rest as finishing when both players and DM agree that is has and they're ready to get on with the day.
Long rest isn't just sleeping, its the setting up and breaking camp, breakfast, setting and checking traps, packing, and of course the latrine arrangements etc.
So yes, the Warlock can wait until the long rest is over, strangle his rat, and then ask the DM if they can start a short rest, while the rest of the party make a start poking around the ruins or scouting the orc camp or whatever.

Hmm.

You know, technically, the Warlock could actually cast their Hex and throttle the weasel during the Long rest, and then still regain all of their spell slots at the end of the long rest.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Mercule]

On a serious note, I'd view a long rest as finishing when both players and DM agree that is has and they're ready to get on with the day.
Long rest isn't just sleeping, its the setting up and breaking camp, breakfast, setting and checking traps, packing, and of course the latrine arrangements etc.
So yes, the Warlock can wait until the long rest is over, strangle his rat, and then ask the DM if they can start a short rest, while the rest of the party make a start poking around the ruins or scouting the orc camp or whatever.

I've allowed the party to split and half rest, before. If the group wants to habitually be in a mode of being down the Warlock for the first encounter of the day, I guess I could live with it. Seems fairly dumb, though, so I expect it to resolve itself after the TPK.

On a different serious note, this thread has caused me to ponder races like the elf and warforged who don't really sleep during their long rest.

I'm totally on board with the idea that concentration lasts through a "rest" and would actually be ended by, say, going to sleep (unconscious). Does that, however, give the elven warlock an unfair advantage when she is still concentrating during her reverie?