Warlocks being broken?

[Falling Icicle]

Very well summarized. And it is a shame. Warlocks are fairly simple to stat out, they'd make wonderful replacements for BBEG casters to save prep time, but they really are awful in that role. They do too little damage per round to be threatening at the assumed CR, and have too many HD and special abilities to honestly get knocked down by more than a few points of CR, either.

Don't forget that warlocks can take 10 on Use Magic Device checks. A warlock can be far more threatening as a BBEG if he is armed with some scrolls and wands that contain nasty spells.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

When I first saw the Warlock, I didn't like them because I felt they were a nice concept poorly executed.

Over time, I've come to think of them a bit differently, and NewJeffCT's summary illustrates excellently the mechanical part of my rethink.

To me, the Warlock is to the Wizard and the Sorcerer as the Monk or Ranger is to the Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, Cleric (Warrior build) or PsyWar.

The Ftr, Pal, Barb, Warrior Cleric and PsyWar are fine front-line warriors, capable of dishing out and taking lots of damage. Over time, a single-classed PC in any of them will do just fine as a party's sole warrior, if need be. Rangers and Monks (and classes like the Soulknife) are more like skirmishers- best at hit and run, engage/disengage tactics. They're secondary warriors not meant to just stand around and pound and pound, not suited to be the sole warrior in most campaigns.

The Wiz and Sorc are your big, showy arcanists- magical mauls, if you will. Warlocks are scalpels. As such, they're really not designed to be a party's sole arcanist.

 

[Doug Sundseth]

Combine the Warlock with another class. Sure you lose a few abilities, but it is really good.

A Cha dumped Warlock is pretty good (fell flight, Entropic Warding, etc don't use Cha).

Might work, though I could never come up with a class that I would synergize well with Warlock. The better Warlock powers really don't come up right away, so you'd need something front-loaded to dip into. And most dip classes don't work well with the Warlock.

I suppose you could multi-class with Bard to get some breadth without increasing MAD.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Might work, though I could never come up with a class that I would synergize well with Warlock.

Its less about class and more about build.

Any PC build that includes feats like Point Blank Shot, Precise shot and possibly WFoc: ranged touch attack- while probably not the peak of optimization- will still dovetail nicely with Warlock.

So an archer Ranger build, for one, would have a little extra something in his pocket that can't be sundered, can't be stolen and never runs out of ammo. It probably affects critters unaffected by his arrows as well.

A Sorc, Wiz, Cleric, Psion, Wilder or other caster/manifester who goes for Orb and Ray spells/powers benefits similarly, especially if he doesn't want to burn Feats on things like Reach spell or some of the Reserve or Heritage feats that grant Ray or Orb-like abilities.

A PC who gets into a PrCl like a Kineticist or Spellfire Channeler benefits likewise.

 

[Theroc]

Well, the houseruled monk variant I am playing switched all of his wisdom-based abilities to key off of Charisma, since as a concept he was supposed to be more of a 'smooth' kinda guy, less of a "Higher Mysteries" sorta guy.

He was a simple farmboy who picked up a few tricks... and he was supposed to grow into a bit of a showfighter for entertainment. So, his monk-stuff is now Charisma-keyed. So Warlock or Sorcerer would fit nicely, but I like Warlock because the concept is simpler(and there's a Wizard and Sorcerer already in the general game group).

The Warlock portion was mostly for just a few extra tricks, and a ranged weapon that wasn't exhaustible(Monks don't get much starting money).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't agree about ranger. The first feat you'd get is rapid shot, worthless to a warlock. And it's a warlock build, so it's not like you're going deep into ranger. Even if you did, level 6's manyshot also doesn't help. Only the level 11 Improved Precise Shot would actually benefit EB.

I think Rogue, Ninja, or (to exapnd on the jack of all trades arcanist schtick) Spellthief (especially if the DM lets you apply the Master Spellthief feat for warlock as if it were a casting class) works well with a warlock that picks sneaky invocations. Even better possibly if you could try and get into a rogue/arcanist prestige class from there, maybe.

Actually, a warlock's basically just taking a standard action every round anyway, movement's kinda overlooked. Multiclassing with scout for skirmish might not be too bad, either.

Whatever you do with Warlock, you can never go wrong with Fell Flight + Flyby Attack. Flyby Attack, unlike Spring Attack, lets you take a standard action between your movement, not merely an attack action.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't agree about ranger. The first feat you'd get is rapid shot, worthless to a warlock. And it's a warlock build, so it's not like you're going deep into ranger. Even if you did, level 6's manyshot also doesn't help. Only the level 11 Improved Precise Shot would actually benefit EB.

That's just looking at the bonus feats. If you're building an archer ranger, you're going to take PoBlSh and PrSh in the first 3-6 levels regardless, and that will perforce help the Warlock.

I tell you what...the more I think about it, the more I think an (as yet unmade) Eldritch Archer- an Arcane Archer-style PrCl with an "use 1st level Invocations" prereq instead of a "cast 1st level arcane spells" prereq- could be cool if done properly.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

But you don't need ranger for that. Ranger isn't actually adding much to the warlock. It gets nice skills, BAB, and saves, but not much better HD. The favored enemy won't come up much and will be a small bonus, Endurance won't help much, animal companion will be very weak...

I'm just saying you could get much better stuff from other multiclassing than from ranger, and while both may benefit from PBS and PS, you'll seldom need a bow as a warlock, and you can do archer with fighter and other classes just fine anyway. No class is going to give you the two archery feats you actually want/need regardless.

Thinking of all the classes that would work as well as ranger did give me a fun idea, though. Lion Totem (ie, pouncing) Barbarian / Warlock with Eldritch Glaive.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But you don't need ranger for that.

No you don't, but IME, most people playing archer builds use Rangers, Scouts and Fighters, in that order.

Therefore, I went with suggesting the Warlock multiclass what I perceived as the most common class for archer PCs.

Besides, as I pointed out in my initial post, its not necessarily about being an optimal build. A guy with a touch of eeeeeeevil on his soul who- willingly or unwillingly- spends his time in the wilderness cultivating survival skills has a lot of flavor.

And who that guy is as a person depends on which way he starts out. Perhaps his being a Warlock got him exiled, and he became a self-taught Ranger or Scout out of a need for survival. (This would be the wandering hero archetype with a darker cast.)

Or perhaps he was a Ranger or Scout first, and somehow had his darker side released over time. (This would be sort of like a darker version of Logan Tom, a Knight of the Word from Terry Pratchett's Genesis of Shannarra series.)

 

[Falling Icicle]

I tell you what...the more I think about it, the more I think an (as yet unmade) Eldritch Archer- an Arcane Archer-style PrCl with an "use 1st level Invocations" prereq instead of a "cast 1st level arcane spells" prereq- could be cool if done properly.

Done!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3r...cane-archer-variant-warlocks.html#post4894893