Warlock's EBlast and MetaSpell-like Ability

[ARandomGod]

OK. So I hear there are nifty feats like:
Empower Spell Like Ability
Quicken Spell Like Ability
Maximize Spell Like Ability


Am I to understand that a warlock can quicken, empower, and maximize his Eldritch Blasts? So that he can cast two Maximized and Empowered bolts (as one would be quickened) in a turn?

Add Eldritch Blast invocations to that and you could be turning out two really nasty ranged touch attacks at up to 250 feet no less each round. Or chain them both and hit several people.

Is this a correct interpretation? Tell me what you think of the relative power levels of this idea...
At level 12 your bolts do 6d6... so a maximized/empowered bolt does effectively 3d6+36, with no save. Two of them (one quickened) do 6d6+72 Of course, you'd only get two per round...

Then again, you can only use those quicken, empower, or maximize three times a day...

OK, open discussion. I haven't decided one way or the other.
Overpowered?
Balanced?
Not worth taking the feats?
What do you guys think?

 

[Gort]

He can't do that.

An eldritch blast is treated as a spell with a level equal to half the warlocks caster level.

Look at the quicken and empower table on page 304 of the Monster Manual. It's never possible to quicken or empower eldritch blast.

 

[Particle_Man]

Well, the example given under one of the feats seems to indicate that a warlock can voluntarily cast invocations as a lower level warlock, thus allowing them to three times a day use the feat but with a lower "base damage" appropriate to their lower level as a warlock. So instead of a 9d6 blast, they might get off a 6d6 blast, empowered, giving them...um...9d6.

Well, maybe not the best feat in the world for a warlock to take.

For those that say that strictly speaking this is not in the RAW, despite the example, you are correct. But I am psychic, and I have seen that it will be in the FAQ soon.

 

[Gort]

I can't see the bit about voluntarily lowering the spell level. Where is it, exactly?

 

[Thanee]

Choose one of the creature’s spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described below.
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to half its caster level (round down) –4.

The Eldritch Blast does not qualify for one such spell-like ability, regardless of whether it could be used on a lower level, it cannot be chosen as the spell-like ability to Empower or Quicken in the first place, because it breaks the spell level limit.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Gort]

Plus, even if you could, you could only use it quickened or empowered 3 times per day.

 

[ARandomGod]

Well, the example given under one of the feats seems to indicate that a warlock can voluntarily cast invocations as a lower level warlock, thus allowing them to three times a day use the feat but with a lower "base damage" appropriate to their lower level as a warlock. So instead of a 9d6 blast, they might get off a 6d6 blast, empowered, giving them...um...9d6.

Well, maybe not the best feat in the world for a warlock to take.

For those that say that strictly speaking this is not in the RAW, despite the example, you are correct. But I am psychic, and I have seen that it will be in the FAQ soon.

The person in question (and this build looked really, really good), cited things like "quiken spell like ability'".

Are you saying that the eldritch blast is not a spell like ability? Or one not allowed by the empower spell like ability feat? It does LOOK like it's a spell like ability to me:
"A warlock's invocations are spell like abilities; ..." ... subject to spell resist, caster level equal to warlock level with regards to spell resist...

No, there's some more quotes:
... (not spells so cannot benifit from spell focus, can benifit from ability focus...) "He can, however, benifit from the Ability Focus feat (303 monsters manual), as well as from feats that emulate metamagic effects for spell-like abilities, such as "Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Empower Spell-Like ability (303-304 Monsters Manual)".
Straight out of the Complete Arcane, and suggests strongly that he can do this.

Although... wait for it... I might see what you're talking about (looked in SRD under MonsterFeats. "The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to half its caster level (round down) –2."

Ah HA! I see now what you were referring to that he can cast lower than his level, allowing an empower. So. A 12th level warlock is what I'm using (What he's building), a 6d6 blast. Instead of (6d6x1.5=9d6) He'd have to half his level -2, or level 4, which is 2d6 (3d6 empowered). Definitely not as overpowered as using his full strength. With the above qote though, you can see how he wouldn't have gotten that necessarily.

And quicken is half -4. So not anywhere near decent.

I don't see maximize in the SRD, but going by the pattern I see, I assume it's half -3.

None of those are worth it in any way.

Heheh... well, I guess that answers most of my questions
1) Is this a correct interpretation? : Not exactly.

2)Overpowered? : If anything, doing this is severly underpowered. (I think it was pretty overpowered as he thought it was though).

3) Balanced? : Sure... hehehehhh..

4)Not worth taking the feats? Definitely not worth it?

 

[ARandomGod]

Plus, even if you could, you could only use it quickened or empowered 3 times per day.

Yea, but I did some math on that, and it turns out extremely overpowered. If you could quicken an empowered maximized full level blast, and then send out an empowered maximized full level blast.

Sure, you've used 2/3 of your daily allotment of empower and maximize. But you've also done a LOT of damage in one round, on a touch attack (OK, two). So relatively likely to hit and no save.

Next round you can still quicken an empowered maximized blast, and then send out a normal blast. Assuming the target lived through the first hit.

Third round you have one quicken left, so send out two blasts.

OK, assuming 12th level caster, that's a 6d6 blast. The minimum amount of damage you'd do in the first round (assuming both hit, not a bad assumption), is 78 points of damage. Average would be 92 points of damage (Max 108). Not the most that can be done by the cheesiest build, perhaps. But a really, really powerful hit. And one that doesn't need you to be, say on a horse charging. You could theoretically do this 250 feet away via a ranged touch attack.(Or 60 feet away to up to three opponents).

So sure, you can only do THAT once a day. But WOW. And your next turn is pretty impressive too, doing 67 points of damage average. ^_^

And you've still got one quicken to use!

So a pretty great combo, were it feasible.

 

[hobgoblin]

form the stuff i could gather about the E blast of a warlock, it itself is not a invocation but everythign that manipulates it is a invocation...

 

[ARandomGod]

The Eldritch Blast does not qualify for one such spell-like ability, regardless of whether it could be used on a lower level, it cannot be chosen as the spell-like ability to Empower or Quicken in the first place, because it breaks the spell level limit.

Bye
Thanee

But I'm under the impression that EB's are definitely spell like abilities...

An excerpt from a conversation I'm having about it.

"A warlock of level 12's EB stays at SL6, but since we determine the total SL by the highest of essence + shape, as soon as I add an essence or shape the resulting SL is 4 or 2 or somt hing, not 6 anymore. And since the feat demands a SL of 4 or lower, I can do it. "

An arguement that that as long as the spell like ability it emulates is less than the quicken or maximize requirement, it can be done...

And it does say in the feat description an ability that emulates a spell of less than X, not a spell like ability of less than X...