Warp Drive vs Hyperdrive: Star Trek and Star Wars comparative speeds (WOIN)

[Umbran]

They are both referring to a concept of a different dimension coming out of Einstein's theories.

No. The science-fiction concept of "hyperspace" has nothing to do with Einstein's work. Einstein only works with the normal three dimensions of space, and one of time - he merely allows you to *bend* them.

Some people believe that it is the set of dimensions that wormholes are moving through.

They would be incorrect, though we can forgive them that misconception, as it is common. Einsteinian wormholes do not need a higher-dimensional space, though Einstein does not preclude such from existing. Einstein makes *no* predictions about the qualities of higher-dimensional spaces, much less any that would tell us whether we could steer a ship through them once there.

 

[Morrus]

Real world physics aside (all this is just Lucas', Roddenberry's, etc., random fluff text to essentially describe the same thing - FTL travel, complete with misuse of parsecs!) I'm wrestling with a slight issue.

As you can see from the above table, SW "speeds" are much "faster" than ST "speeds" (I use the word in quotes so you can insert your own words) by an order of magnitude or two. And I want both universes to be playable with my ruleset (along with every other universe - the game is a real tookit approach for building your setting, comlete with underlying technological assumptions).

The ship construction rules use a system whereby FTL speed is equal to FTL engine "power" (again, use your own word) divided by ship class (a measure of mass). Engines which produce 64 power on a Class 8 starshiip give a speed of FTL-8. Simples.

Works fine in that lower range for Trek stuff. Doesn't work for Wars stuff.

I figured using tech level in the calculation - if Trek is tech level 9 and Wars is 10, at tech level 10 FTL speed is effectively muliplied by 10 over the same technology at tech level 9. That's a bit of a clumsy fudge, though.

I could simply create new engines which give vast amounts of "power"; the GM would have to choose which set of engines was available in his setting. It makes no sense having both available, because who's going to use a Trek warp engine when they could instead use the engine out of the Millenium Falcon and move at a hundred times the speed?

I guess that's the way to do it. Two sets of components, and the GM chooses which his universe uses.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Do you want specific mechanisms, or do you want just some guidelines in your system so that both are possible?

The reason I ask is if it is the former, I'd just go with some kind of warp bubble drive for the trek speed stuff, and anything faster requires massive gates a la Stargate. Or at the very least, the power plants for more powerful drives would be so massive that no ship under a certain size could carry them.

...at least, not until the next tech level...

 

[Morrus]

Oh, it has to include them all! Or at least as many as possible. I've included gates and wormholes on the non-ship powered side, and jump, hyper, and warp drives, plus solar sales, tachyon conduits and more exotic stuff.

 

[Bluenose]

One you're missing is the Mass Effect setting. A mix of jumpgates and short-ranged Type 0 FTL. And really well known, of course.

 

[Umbran]

As you can see from the above table, SW "speeds" are much "faster" than ST "speeds" (I use the word in quotes so you can insert your own words) by an order of magnitude or two. And I want both universes to be playable with my ruleset (along with every other universe - the game is a real tookit approach for building your setting, comlete with underlying technological assumptions).

The ship construction rules use a system whereby FTL speed is equal to FTL engine "power" (again, use your own word) divided by ship class (a measure of mass). Engines which produce 64 power on a Class 8 starshiip give a speed of FTL-8. Simples.

Works fine in that lower range for Trek stuff. Doesn't work for Wars stuff.

And I can imagine why - it is *not* the case that Trek engines are just less powerful Wars engines. They are qualitatively different, such that you'll have issues trying to pretend they are merely quantitatively different.

I noted one qualitative difference above in navigation. But, that generalizes to the genre of story they support. Star Trek engines are for stories in which you explore the galaxy. Star Wars engines are for after the galaxy is explored, and you have to live in it. This is even embodied in the names of the franchises.

 

[Morrus]

And I can imagine why - it is *not* the case that Trek engines are just less powerful Wars engines.

That's why I said to use your own word. Substitute "power" with computing limits of your navicomputer or space-shortening/folding or whatever fluff text works. Or, heck, substitute "engine" with "drive" or "system" or "computer".

It's just general "capacity" I suppose. "Ability to move long distances in a short time". Star Wars hyperdrives have a higher "capacity" than Star Trek warp drives. The word's not the important part.

 

[Umbran]

That's why I said to use your own word. Substitute "power" with computing limits of your navicomputer or space-shortening/folding or whatever fluff text works. Or, heck, substitute "engine" with "drive" or "system" or "computer".

It's just general "capacity" I suppose. "Ability to move long distances in a short time". Star Wars hyperdrives have a higher "capacity" than Star Trek warp drives. The word's not the important part.

I know the word isn't the important part. In worrying about the word, you've missed the point. The difference between those engines is not their capacity, any more than the real difference between hiking boots and a motorcycle is their capacity to move you quickly.

The difference between the engines is in the type of story they support.

There is no call to put both into the same campaign unless you are trying to do a genre mash-up. And that's something you have to do carefully or you write something nonsensical. Or, in game terms, you set up a situation you think works, and the player say, "But what about...." and they note something you completely didn't consider and your whole premise falls apart in the third session and you look pretty foolish as a worldbuilder.

 

[Morrus]

I know the word isn't the important part. In worrying about the word, you've missed the point. The difference between those engines is not their capacity, any more than the real difference between hiking boots and a motorcycle is their capacity to move you quickly.

The difference between the engines is in the type of story they support.

You're being unduly aggressive today, Umbran. Are you OK? I wasn't worrying about the word; I was trying my damndest to move the conversation away from the word. And I haven't missed the point. I fully understand the point. I felt it was obvious enough it didn't need discussing.

But yes, I agree, those are narrative macguffins for different styles of movie/show.

There is no call to put both into the same campaign unless you are trying to do a genre mash-up. And that's something you have to do carefully or you write something nonsensical. Or, in game terms, you set up a work you think works, and the player say, "But what about...." and they note something you completely didn't consider and your whole premise falls apart in the third session and you look pretty foolish as a worldbuilder.

As I mentioned, they wouldn't go in the same campaign; doing so would be hard to justify for reasons I discussed above. Or, if they did, that's up to the GM - I'm not writing a campaign, just a toolkit. They merely need to use the same rules system.

So, going back to the point -- the current suggestion is to just have a sidebar saying "use this scale for these campaigns, and this other scale for these other campaigns". Or "Decide on the laws of physics in your setting. Are they Trekian? Star Warsian? Then any ship has to obey those laws, whichever genre you're modelling it from."

 

[Morrus]

So for now I've gone with this:

High Magnitude Propulsion Systems (Advancement Level 10) The system presented here represents FTL speeds as portrayed on shows and movies like Star Trek. In other movies, such as the Star Wars movies, FTL systems are faster by an order of magnitude. For these systems, simply multiply the FTL factor by 10.

That's a very simply way to handle it, but I think it basically works. You use the same rules and multiply at the end. It doesn't fully acknowledge the fluff-text difference in systems, but the fluff text can be left to the GM. Add a paragrpah to the setting creation chapter with some advice about the effect it will have on the style of game, and I think it's fully addressed.

The x10 modifier works surprisingly well for transforming Trek speeds into Wars speeds. It's almost as though they'd planned it!