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Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

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Celebrim

Legend
Oh! I can play this game. Gandalf needs only have a nuclear bomb and set if off, they both die and he can be 0 level. There's nothing that says the staff is anything more than a focus for Gandalf's spells.

I agree that there is nothing that says that Gandalf's staff is anything more than a focus for Gandalf's spells, and said so in my write up. But it is important to note that the original essayist did not make that assumption. Rather, the original essayist and many of his readers would have assumed that Gandalf has a Staff of Power. The essayist mentions that on account of the staff and the ring, it would be possible that Gandalf is less than 5th level, since both would have in and of themselves explained Gandalf's ability to cast the spells he does. Certainly it would appear to me that the idea of the retributive strike comes from the scene of Gandalf breaking his staff on the bridge of Khazad-dum, although I would have to check 'Playing at the World' to verify if this is true. Nonetheless, this gives plenty of ability for a player from a oD&D or AD&D perspective to imagine a 5th level Wizard beating a Balrog, and that is sufficient along with all the other evidence to suggest Gandalf could have been a 5th level Wizard.

It's self-evident why it is more reasonable to assume Gandalf has a Staff of Power rather than a nuclear bomb.

He can't be 6th level. He was instructed in Aman not to use his full power, so if you are correct and he used his full power, he's a fallen Maia who rebelled against Aman. Since we know that isn't the case, he's has to be more powerful than the magic that he shows.

Once again, you are misremembering the text and relying on a loose summation of a passage rather than the text itself. They were commanded not to use their power to dominate the free peoples, nor to attempt to overcome Sauron's power by power. Gandalf normally conceals his full power as a 6th level wizard so as to not overawe the free peoples, because in Tolkien's world a 6th level wizard is incredibly powerful awe inspiring worker of miracles capable of doing things far beyond what is possible for ordinary people, but Gandalf is perfectly free in a pinch or in private or when away from observation to use his full power in self-defense or to protect those same free peoples provided his purpose in doing so is not dominating the free people, nor with the ultimate aim of defeating Sauron by his own power. When Gandalf does his fireball type thing against the phantom wolves, or uses lightning bolts against the goblins, or both against the Nazgul on Weathertop, there is no reason to suppose that he is not using his full power. After all, Gandalf rarely chooses to do even that much. And there is certainly no reason to suppose that Gandalf is breaking the command of the Valar to do so.

Gandalf differs from Saruman not in that Saruman had decided to reveal his full power as a 18th level wizard (or some other crap), because there is certainly no evidence Saruman had any such power, but in that Saruman had decided to rule over the free peoples and defeat Sauron in a direct contest of power. Saruman himself was probably not more than a 7th level wizard, plus whatever other racial powers Gandalf had, themselves no more potent than what would be expected of a character of about 6th or 7th level. Any big difference in the power level of Gandalf and Saruman appears to be related to what magic items they each had access to. Gandalf of course had Narya, as a gift from clear eyed Cirdan, and this is probably the ultimate source of Saruman's jealousy and eventual fall. Saruman finds the Palantir in Orthanc and so has powers of observation and action at a distance that Gandalf lacks. But neither acts in the way a high level wizard in D&D acts, despite the fact that Saruman is disregarding the commands of the Valar. That in itself ought to be sufficient to show that when Gandalf is concealing his power, it's concealing that he's a 6th level wizard and an ainur, and not that he's concealing that he's an 18th level wizard.

Now, there is an important point to be made here. Fireball is actually more powerful than anything Gandalf can actually do. The text makes perfectly clear that Gandalf cannot make fire in midair or set alight anything that cannot burn. There is good reason to suppose that fireball is a more powerful spell than anything Gandalf can actually do on his own. However, as with almost everything else in D&D, it's both absolutely certain from the historical evidence that the spell Fireball is intended to represent the power of Gandalf, and also its equally clear to any Tolkien scholar that just like almost everything else ported from Middle Earth to D&D it's a pretty poor translation. So while a very faithful Middle Earth RPG probably wouldn't have fireball in it, within the context of D&D Gandalf casts fireballs. A similar comment applies to Gandalf's staff. While it's pretty darn certain that Gandalf's staff in Middle Earth was not what D&D players call a Staff of Power or a Staff of the Magi, it's likewise pretty clear to me that the idea of the Staff of Power comes from Saruman's banter with Gandalf when he asked if Gandalf wanted to have the Staffs of the Five Wizards and boots of a larger size, and that the retributive strike is likewise an interpretation of why Gandalf broke his staff and what it meant when he did so.

Most of what is in D&D is in one way or the other, all disclaimers aside, inspired by Tolkien's works. Often it is based on the reader's lack of clarity regarding the text or wrong imagination of the scene, as for example with the fireball spell or any number of other things, be it elves (who don't need to sleep), elvish chainmail, goblins, ents, or mithril. To say then that the mithril of Middle Earth is far more powerful than the mithril of D&D is on some level ridiculous. The mithril of D&D is intended to be the mithril of middle earth. And unlike say fireball, there is no reason in the text to believe that it's not a reasonably faithful interpretation of what the text reads. You might be able to reasonably claim that over time mithril has become more ubiquitous in D&D than it was in Tolkien's world, where it was rare in the extreme and so more valuable. But that's a later innovation in how the game is played, not something that existed or was intended in 1977.

To the extent that we know the original essayist got some details wrong, it's not his fault but simply the result of us having the Silmarillion to examine - and he didn't. Thus he could not be nearly as clear on the fact that Gandalf was an angel as we are, and so had no firm reason to think Gandalf was anything other than he appeared to be to the free peoples of middle earth - a wizard, perhaps human, or perhaps once you realized he didn't age, then of some elvish origin (hence "Gandalf", "Staff Elf"). And if you are to assume that Gandalf's powers are only that of a wizard, there is no reason to assume that he is anything more than a 5th or 6th level wizard. And, even if you do know that Gandalf is actually an angel concealing his true form and power, there is still no reason to assume that Gandalf is capable of casting more than 3rd level arcane spells using his own lore. Indeed, the original essayist is quite right to believe that it is possible that Gandalf, at least as it involves fire spells, might not have been capable of that much without having a Ring of Power as Gandalf was not in his native authority a master of fire.

Ancalagon wasn't a 10 hit die red dragon. He was unique and more powerful than Smaug, who might be a 10 hit die red dragon. Ancalagon broke mountains when he fell. No 10 hit die red dragon is going to do that.

Why not? Exactly what a dragon breaks when it falls is pretty much entirely up to the DMs license, and indeed even the term 'broken mountains' involves a bit of literary license to decide what is meant by that. The basic problem you seem to have is that you know that in 3e there are 34HD dragons, and so 10HD doesn't seem very potent to you. But a 10 HD ancient red dragon in 1e has 80 hit points, and saves as and probably should be treated as for the purpose of XP a 17HD monster. And a monster with 80 hit points and effectively 17HD is enormous and epicly powerful in 1e D&D. Keep in mind that the attack table only goes up to 16HD. But ok, even if we assume Ancalagon was a unique dragon and not simply the largest possible size of firebreathing dragon which I don't agree that we should, then he is no more than the Tolkien universe's equivalent to Tiamat - and 1e Tiamat only had like 133 hit points.

Eru only played conductor. The Ainur brought the universe into being and shaped it via their song to the plan of Eru. The Valar doing the brunt of that work. No Solar could do that.

The Ainur did not bring the universe into being with their song. The Ainur brought the idea of the universe into being, although obviously, even this idea was beyond their ability to create on their own. It required Illuvatar's word and the power of the flame imperishable that belongs to Illuvatar alone to make the idea of the universe actually become real. Read the scene again. The world only stops being an idea not when the song is sung, but when Illuvatar declares that the song should become real. As for the ability of a Solar to do the work, Solar's can cast both Wish and Miracle. So yeah, I think it's reasonable to believe that a being that mighty can as a work of labor shape the raw material of the world into form over the course of countless eons.

And in any event, we know from external sources that the Tolkien cosmology explicitly parallels the Catholic faith. As such, there is no reason to suppose at all that anyone but Illuvatar has actual divine ranks, or that the Valar are anything other than explicit parallels to archangels.

They were alive and breathed, even if puppets. They just didn't have minds and will. No Solar could do even what you describe, let alone what actually happened.

A solar can easily cast Animate Object, which is afterall only a 6th level clerical spell, and which would allow an object to appear to be alive - though actually mindless. The SRD says of the spell: "You imbue inanimate objects with mobility and a semblance of life." I believe that it is compatible with the idea of a semblance of life for a statue to move and breathe and appear alive. The Silmarillion text explicitly says that everything the Dwarfs were doing prior to Illuvatar's intervention was simply Aule animating them according to his will, and they wouldn't have moved at all if he had not continually willed it. So if anything, Aule had less power than Animate Object appears to confer, although obviously we can't be sure how Animate Object actually works.

Fundamentally, you are repeating the error the original essayist is speaking out against. The idea that the Valar have to be greater gods or that Ancalagon can't simply be the largest possible firebreathing dragon or that Gandalf can't be a 6th level wizard or that the Balrog of Moria cant' be an ordinary Balor involves mentally diminishing what those things actually are, and making them in your imagination small and trite things. But not only is that contrary to the intention of the original author of those things which intended those things to not only represent the very things you claim they can't be and who likewise intended them to be awesome, but in doing so you are unnecessarily crapping on your own game world by making your PC's small things of little worth, your stories smaller things than the game intended them to be, your setting more trite than it was intended, and your gameplay slower and more complicated than was intended simply because you are insisting on multiplying all the numbers by some factor just to make them feel extraordinarily large to you. But if you look at the text, that's ridiculous. Balors and Solars are intended to be so rare and powerful as to be countable things in the entire multiverse. It's not the original conception that is small - it's what DMs have done with them since then.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
I thought it was a Balrog and a veritable army of goblins that took down Moria?

The original essayist and most readers would have made that assumption. And they really couldn't make any other assumption, since at the time they only had the text of the Lord of the Rings to work with.

But it appears from Tolkien's notes that the Balrog really did empty Moria on its own, and then only later took command over the orcs that began to spread through the Misty Mountains under the direction of the reawakening Sauron. Thus, the situation in Moria was actually more desparate when Balin tried to retake the city, than when Nain lost it. Balin's expedition was doomed from the start.
 

Celebrim

Legend
D&D is not a good fit for middle earth, unless you revamp all the classes and magic. You would need to take the champion fighter as the lead and dumb down everything else to match. Even a class like a warlock (as a simple caster) is too complex for middle earth. Even if you re-fluff it. I believe that is a hint to why every D&D movie is a disaster, i.e. too much magic and no way to tone it down and at the same time be true to the game.

If you understand that a typical D&D game plays out more like a Marvel Super Hero movie than it does a traditional fantasy, then you have your template for how such a movie should be made.
 

aka_pg

Villager
Recently re-discovered this article after reading the variant E6: the Game Inside D&D. I was looking for a way to slow advancement as I favor a more gritty game. Wonderful, in-depth conversations here, but the article works for me.
 

Celebrim

Legend
They weren't rare at all. Dwarves in Middle Earth made magic weapons.

I'm sure they did, but this doesn't mean that other than something like Durin's Axe, weapons sufficient to harm the Balrog were in any way common.

Again, I think you are fundamentally misreading the setting based on later D&D assumptions about prevailing power levels and the commonality of magic. A dwarf with as much as a +1 battleax would have been rare. Most of the dwarven weapons were actually no more than masterwork quality items.

Indeed, it could be argued that a faithful Middle Earth setting has no magic at all, merely technology. The elves themselves have no word for 'magic', and didn't clearly understand the term. They would have understood the important medieval term goetia, but found magic bafflingly imprecise. A key scene in Lord of the Rings is when Sam is inspecting the rope that the elves have provided, and he asks, "Is it magic?" The elf on hand laughs and says, "I'm sure I don't know what you mean. Certainly it is well-made...Had we known the craft delighted you, we could have taught you much." In other words, the item that appears magic to Sam, is not magical at all, but simply good technology which Sam - having no aptitude for what a reader would call 'magic' - could have been taught to produce. The vast majority of the weapons, armor, and so forth of the elves and dwarves are of this nature. They are not magical in the D&D sense, but simply extraordinarily well made. That is not to say that dwarves and elves couldn't produce things that are 'magical' in the D&D sense, by weaving spells into their construction, but this labor required an individual of extraordinary personal authority and deep lore. It certainly not the case that Moria would have been filled with such items. Magical items in middle-earth are rare - so rare that they are generally famous. Middle Earth is not filled with unnamed +1 magic weapons. They are rare and tend to have histories.

No one is going around middle earth wearing the Christmas tree. The Fellowship, despite being a collection of the mightiest mortal figures of Middle Earth, isn't exactly overflowing with magical weapons. They have Sting, the ancient dagger of Gondolin, and Gandalf's Glamdring. They have the newly reforged Anduril. And arguably that's it. Boromir's newly forged elvish blade might have been magical, or it just might have been a masterwork elvish blade. There is good evidence that it is not magical because it is unable to damage the troll that tries to enter the chamber of Marzarbul, though Sting's bite is deep. Legolas eventually acquires a bow from Galadriel that is probably a magic bow, but again it could have just been masterwork. Gimli, despite being a cousin of the King and the son of King's chief chancellor, certainly does not appear to carry a magic weapon, nor did Thorin appear to have a magic weapon before acquiring Orcrist, nor is any weapon in Smaug's horde apparently its superior. This is I think very much sufficient to prove that magic weapons, much less potent ones, are not common in Dwarf kingdoms.
 
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inkhorn

Villager
Thanks for finding this. I knew there was an early Dragon Magazine with an article like this!

We all know the real secret is he is 5e multi class bard, magic user who likes to cast the Light and Phantasmal Force at higher levels because it is ironic, and uses the fireworks and pipe as his instrument .
 

TheLoneRanger1979

First Post
Ah finally! Another one, and this time i'm around to participate :D
Welcome fellow Tolkienites! :p

Now where to start. So many of you fine gentlefolk have already made most of the best points. I can only full heartedly agree with most of those. Yes Gandalf is neither human nor a mage in DnD terms. Although he is familiar and proficient in some spell casting (as already quoted on this forum), most of his power (and i dare say the greatest part) doesn't come from his spells, but rather from his nature and "jurisdiction". How can we best translate this amalgam of abilities into a DnD language? Probably with an MC as some of you have pointed out. Lore bard was often thrown around and it does seam to fit well into some of his abilities and lore wise would make some sense. What "level" should he be? Well..... the answer to both this questions of course already pointed out lies in different places in different editions. As i am not versed enough in all editions of DnD (and i don't have the source material for more then half of those), i'll limit myself to only pointing out the ways and magnitudes of which he (and other Middle Earth characters) were able to manipulate the environment.

I'll skip with most "low level" innate abilities like magical senses and jump straight to the major feats. Note, some of this feats are not powers themselves but actual accomplishments.

-As most have concluded, he does manifest affinity to manipulate fire. Some for of fire balls or other related actions or "spells" thus seam fitting. In at least one case (on Wethertop) when he was surrounded by Nazgul he seams to have "cast" something that appears to be (i am sure i got the name wrong) a 2E Fire Blast or Flame Blast, that is a powerful fireball that originates from the caster. Find the level of that spell, the level needed to cast it at least once, and you have the minimum level right there.

-During the Moria encounter both he and the Balrog engaged in a contest of wills and used both power words and wards to seal doors and walls. More difficult to quantify.

-Besides the fire and lighting abilities, he also seams to posses some kind of "Sacred Light" thingy and i don't mean the light he used to lead the way. Also difficult to quantify.

-The protection and shielding was already mentioned.

-During his fight with the Balrog on top of the mountain we don't get much detail as to what and how much was actually done. But we do know this:
"I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountainside where he smote it in his ruin"......
Which brings me to the next point..... the Balrog was no pushover. Neither were the Powers and their servants. A dead Balrog broke a mountainside in his fall. That tells you something. And when he first senses it, Gandalf states "I have finally met my mach". I would presume he meant that this enemy was his equal. And lo! He died fighting it.

So, on the nature of the Powers and their servants. Tolkien himself states in the Silmarillion that though they were not gods, the Valar or the Powers were in fact what humans from later ages would consider gods to be. Could they create matter out of "nothing". The way i read the books, i could never clearly discern if they created the world or only shaped it, but i am pretty sure they could rase continents and islands, raise and hollow oceans, break and raise mountains, create celestial objects...... all these things do not sound like work of Solars and Planetars. At the very best Solars and Planetars from DnD could be their servants. Similar to what hte Maiar are. And to some extent the Maiar could produce similar effects, only on a smaller scale. But not just the Maiar..... powerful Eldar as well. When the one Ring fell, and Sauron with it, after the hosts of Lothlorien and Mirkwood defeated the armies of Dol Guldur, Galadriel herself came out and she rooted the fell Castle of its foundations. So yeah, i can see why some would consider her the Greatest of the Eldar on Middle Earth. And maybe even the most powerful of the White Counsel.

So where does this lead us? First of all, i think that in his true form, Gandalf as a Maia and a spirit, would be equivalent to a Balrog, or at least the Moria Balrog (after all that is what the Balrogs are, fallen Maiar). However, Gandalf stated that as the time passed his abilities are diminishing. Probably a result of him being encased in a human body. He did forget many things in example, that he once knew. Also, when he came back to the Fellowship, he stated that neither of them (Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli) had weapons that could harm him. Now, i am not sure, did he meant harm his physical form or his spirit? After all, the only noted case when a Wizard died was he himself after "spending" himself in the fight with the Balrog (or possibly dying from the wounds). Yes Saruman was killed by an arrow in the back, but at this time (like Sauron and Morgoth before him) he has already "fallen" beyond redemption and was confined in the shape he has chosen for himself.

Ah, look at the time. Closing hours. I must cut short. A very topic indeed! I would like to see it continue and will try to jump in again later this evening.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
If you assume that magic items are pretty rare...
That most NPCs are 1st level characters...

You do know that NPCs can, you know, move around, right? That the 1st level ones won't just sit there to be killed, and the higher level ones won't wait for the monster to come to them?

If you assume Durin VI was about a 9th level character with his ancestor's magic axe, then maybe he can give the Balrog a tough fight.

Yes, so the leader *himself* will give it a run for its money. But, clearly he's not alone. Any leader of a nation (the dwarves considered it so) would have a personal guard who were quite capable. And the dwarves are a militant race, so certainly they have security forces that are well above 1st level. There's going to be a whole bunch of combat capable characters in that city. If we accept Durin the top at 9th, then there's going to be enough 5th level characters to fill a mead hall. As soon as the Balrog comes a-callin', they're going to come out, and in aggregate they will take it down handily.

This scenario works just fine is the Balrog is significantly more powerful than the dwarves, but not if he's only marginally more powerful. So having a very high CR compared to the dwarves makes more sense.

But the implication is that Durin gets ambushed and killed early on in the contest, and without their champion (and with Durin I's axe, the 'Axe of the Dwarvish Lords', now missing) his people are eventually routed.

It is not clear that the axe disappeared with Durin. All we know is that Balin's people found it - it could have been lost with Nain, Durin's son.

Now if you assume that magic items are common, and that your average dwarf is a 6th level fighter, then no, of course not.

You don't need "the average" to be 6th. You need, maybe, a dozen such in the entire city, who would be called on when such a monster reared his ugly head.

In essence, this argument assumes the conclusion - Gandalf is only a 5th level wizard because we assume the demographics to be not just "most" NPCs are first level, but that characters of notable level in the population are nigh non-existent. I suggest that this is backwards. We should look at what happens in the books, and track back to what that means in D&Disms.

Smaug is as big and old as dragons get. Balrogs are not far short of such a dragon (by description of combats in which they are featured). Work down from there.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The elves made many such weapons. The dwarves also made weapons of unsurpassed quality and sold them to the armies of the elves. There's no reason to think the dwarves fell prey to a disease that reduced them to imbeciles and they suddenly stopped making weapons like that in quantity.
Elves and dwarves made many weapons, true, but AFAIK, the assertion that they made many weapons of such extremely high quality as you describe- analogous to D&D magic weapons- is, I think, unsupported by the text of the novels.

It is not a question of imbecility, but rather of the scarcity of material, skill and time.

Look at real-world swordsmithing: in any given culture in which the making of swords is a major concern, there will be many sword makers. But among those, only a certain small fraction will have the requisite level of skill and available time to fashion a truly well-made weapon. It is like the difference between the skills needed to make a handcrafted Rolls Royce Drophead Phantom and a Toyota Corolla. And not every maker is going to be that skilled.

Mithril is not going to be as available as simple steel. I have personally held in my hands actual gemstone material that was so rare that the stone in the palm of my hand represented 30% of the world's supply. And in the days of Napoleon, aluminum was rarer than gold- the knowledge & technology of how to recognize, find & refine it was limited to just a handful of people. We don't know precisely what "mithril" is, because it is fantasy unobtanium. But like the gemstones and aluminum, Middle Earth material scarcity and the limits of societal mining & smelting tech will put some kind of cap on mithril's availability as a resource. JRRT's Dwarves & Elves weren't going to Gnome Depot to buy tons of the stuff every other weekend.

And even if you have the skill and material in sufficient time, it probably isn't as if crafting a fine weapon of mithril is a quick job. If JRRT imagined the process is analogous to real-world production, working mithril probably takes more time- and possibly specialized equipment- to work as compared to lesser weapons-grade metals. The very qualities that make it a desirable metal might also make it devilishly hard to work with. That will increase the time it takes to make any given piece, possibly by orders of magnitude. Again, the real world illuminates this point: a medieval swordsmith could produce many dozens of weapons of standard steels in the same time it took to craft a single blade of high carbon steel such as you'd find in a master crafted katana or Damascus sword.

If you want a titanium alloy steel, for instance, you have to be able to work with titanium, which requires exactly that because of its extremely high melting point. Ditto platinum as compared to other precious metals: any jeweler who uses it has specialized tools to work with it.

This is even more true if the material is unusually hazardous to work with. I've had custom guitars made, and when choosing which wood would form the body of the first one, I narrowed it down to a few choices, one of which was cocobolo. However, I quickly abandoned it: cocobolo requires special tools and safety precautions to work because its oils can ruin certain tools and increase the toxicity of its dust. As a result, not many woodworkers use it, despite its beauty. Those that do invest in tools that they only use on cocobolo, and on having better than average workshop ventilation or even full-on respirators.

So I reiterate: just because Dwarves and Elves had Mithril weapons, it does not necessarily follow that they had lots of them.
 
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fjw70

Adventurer
D&D is not a good fit for middle earth, unless you revamp all the classes and magic. You would need to take the champion fighter as the lead and dumb down everything else to match. Even a class like a warlock (as a simple caster) is too complex for middle earth. Even if you re-fluff it. I believe that is a hint to why every D&D movie is a disaster, i.e. too much magic and no way to tone it down and at the same time be true to the game.

I do expect a revamp of the classes and magic for this game. I don't think their goal is to be true to D&D fluff but just to be rules compatible.

It will be interesting to see how they handle it. Will they cap 3rd age PCs at 10th level (or something like that). Will they have a different level system to extend those levels (assuming PCs don't go to 20th).
 

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