Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[Hriston]

See "The Unfinished Tales," chapter, "The Istari."

I've read the Unfinished Tales. It's one of my favorite collections of Tolkien's work. I don't recall specifically, however, the mention of Gandalf's vassalage to Manwe or Varda. Is it mentioned there?

 

[Greybird]

In D&D terms? Maybe, but that's because he didn't do what he did based on his 'class.' The thing to keep in mind is that he used a custom race - Istari. It gave him +10 to all stats and made him immortal. He then used 2,000 years of downtime gaining proficiency in every skill and language. He didn't need 9th level spells.

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

There's no reason to think that the eagles and ents were anything other than creations of from the beginning of time. What spirits Tolkien showed us were like the Balrogs, Bombadil, and Goldberry.

Balrogs were (are?) Maiar. A group of Maiar that were referred to as 'spirits of fire'. Fire was in there nature, and that predisposed many of them to follow Melkor and become Balrogs.

The Ents and Eagles are not explained, but based on their entirely biological nature, it's pretty clear that they are not Maiar. Dragons are mostly biological, but their fire breath and great size required more than just upscaling lizards. And, being that only illuvatar created life, and the only 'spirits' he created were the Maiar (and Valar), there's no indication that the ents and Eagles were not creatures of illuvatar's created world. Those creatures, which were non-magical, could be 'brought up' in the good sense or twisted in the evil. Like orcs, wargs, or Shelob on the evil side and Huor, shadowfax, and even the Noldor, on the good side, by exposure to the Valar or Maiar. But they needed to start with that biological life from illuvatar.

Admittedly, that was more clear with the eagles than with the ents. The only being that didn't fit this logic was Tom Bombadil, but JRRT made it very clear by his powers that he's above and outside all of these rules. The ents, though neutral and ancient, didn't have any kind of super or magic powers, so there's no reason to assume they don't follow JRRT's general rules like bombadil. The explanation for the Ents that fits best is that they were plants brought up by Yavanna when she walked the earth in the twilight time before the light of the trees.

There was also no case in JRRTs writing that the Maiar could or did reproduce biologically with creatures of Arda. Perhaps the only exception was spiders being referred to as children of ungoliant. However, it's not explicit that were not children in a more figurative sense, and, also it's not explicitly stated that ungoliant was a Maiar. The best explanation for ungoliant is that she was a left over from before JRRT worked out his rules that only illuvatar was capable of creating life.

And yet:
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world. Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Arda; yet some things were hidden even from the eyes of Manwe and the servants of Manwe, for where Melkor sat in his dark thought impenetrable shadows lay." And it was Manwe who sent the eagles to Middle Earth to watch over the Noldor. I am not saying this actually means these are the same eagles, but the fact that the greatest of them were sentient and could actually speak, may imply some of them were those servants of Manwe in corporeal form. And who knows, maybe as Melian and Thongol had a daughter, so did Thorondor and some of his kin had children with the more "biological" eagles of Middle Earth, and thus the race of the great Eagles was given birth. Ulmo also had servants that took shapes of streams or rivers, sometimes storms. Not all were house less spirits. And then we have the Ents..... this is how they were created:
"When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared"
Again we have spirits inhabiting the shapes of the trees, to act as their guardians. Maybe never directly stated, but i think it is strongly implied that many of the "magical" creatures were in fact spirits of some sort, either bound to or having been given a physical shape.

EDIT:
I should have read the last 2 pages before answering, Khisanth the Ancient beat me to it

I believe it's stated that Morgoth or Sauron sent evil spirits into wolves, creating the werewolves. (Which in Middle-Earth don't seem to be shapechangers, just huge evil intelligent wolves.)

Precisely.

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

Other than the Silmarillion stating that they equipped elven armies with weapons to fight Morgoths armies, which included balrogs and other fallen Maia. Hard to equip entire armies to fight things like that if they aren't magical and in large numbers.

Specifically, they equipped Thingol's armory with weapons (and i don't recall if it was armor as well), but it is never stated they are magical. Thingol's army never really accounts for any Balrog kills (which doesn't mean there weren't any), however do notice that when Beleg has the freedom to chose a weapon, any weapon, from the entire Thingol treasure he picks a sword forged by a dark elf named Eol. And that sword was probably at the time one of the deadliest weapons in Middle Earth (and had a will of its own). If some of the wrightings are to be correct, it is that sword that will strike the final mortal blow to the returning Morrgoth. Even that sword (obviously "magical" even by Tolkien standards) did not kill any balrogs though..... it claimed a dragon, but that is a different story. The only cases of Balrogs being felled in battle that i can remember were actually in fighting with the Noldorin princes, probably most of them during the siege of Gondolin. I would have thus attributed the kills to the divine nature of the Aman originated high elves themselves and not their weapons, but then if i recall correctly, Tuor actually killed some himself. Still.... even in these instances (of arguably lesser Balrogs as presented in Silmarillion then in LOTR) it is always the nobles or their most faithful allies/guards that do the deed. And those allies would be equipped with weapons made in the undying lands and/or specifically for fighting the servants of Morgoth. In any case, there would not be many of them. Even so, most of those were still lost during the Fall of the Noldorin princes and following War of Wrath.

There is however another way of looking at the weapons aside from the magical (spirit imbued) weapons of the elves and the masterwork superb weapons of the dwarfs. Maybe like all tech, weapons were made with certain use in mind. Maybe Noldor weapons were made to fight the servants of Morgoth and were best suited for that. On the other hands dwarven weapons were maybe made to be supremely sharp and of high durability, thus being able to cut better through otherwise difficult to cut/pierce objects, like dragon scales.

EDIT:
Sorry for taking so much time and space (this is one of my favorite topics after all), but i nearly forgot why we came here:
Here is a list of spells in 5E that could qualify for part of Gandalf's repertoire:
4th level:
Control Water, Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere (arguably, could be globe of invulnerability) ,
5th level:
Wall of Force (alternatives bellow), Scrying (arguable),
6th level:
Chain Lightning (In Goblin town, could be regular lightingbolt), Globe of Invulnerability (alternative to ORS), Guards and Wards (alternative to wall of force), Sunbeam , True Seeing (only on himself)
7th level:
Symbol (more exotic version of warding)
8th level:
Sunburst

Unfortunately, no spell i could find is equivalent to a fireball centered on the caster. Some of these could be innate abilities of the race, but either way, his effective MU level would be at least 7 or 9, and could go all the way up to 15.

I've read the Unfinished Tales. It's one of my favorite collections of Tolkien's work. I don't recall specifically, however, the mention of Gandalf's vassalage to Manwe or Varda. Is it mentioned there?

Good question. I have read it only once and i can't recall it all that well. And i am too tired from scrolling the Silmarillion to look for the answer right now. I hope someone can make it more clear.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Then you can tell me what "physics" allowed them to make a face mask that would keep the entire body of the wearer immune to even the hottest dragon fire.

That isn't about skill, that's physics. Physics doesn't care if you're man or dwarf. Skill doesn't create physics-defying shortcuts.

Yes, "magic" is fairly considered to be part of the physics of a fantasy realm. However, even though this may be so, it is usually called "magic", not "skill", even within the literature.

Speak plainly, now: by dwarves being "skilled", do you actually mean they are using "magic"?

Other than the Silmarillion stating that they equipped elven armies with weapons to fight Morgoths armies, which included balrogs and other fallen Maia. Hard to equip entire armies to fight things like that if they aren't magical and in large numbers.

Covered by TheLoneRanger1979's post.

The ONLY reason it's an extinction event is because the number of elves and dwarves is so low. Feanor and company would laugh at Sauron and company. Heck, even the Numenoreans forced Sauron at the height of his power to give up and use subtlety and manipulation. He could't beat them.

I don't think that's accurate.

Says who? Just because they weren't flashy like Sting, doesn't mean that they weren't magical.

Ok, let me put it this way: I have yet to see anyone but you suggest that their weapons are magical. You are making an extraordinary claim. As such, the burden is upon you to support it.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, "magic" is fairly considered to be part of the physics of a fantasy realm. However, even though this may be so, it is usually called "magic", not "skill", even within the literature.

Speak plainly, now: by dwarves being "skilled", do you actually mean they are using "magic"?

Magic is often referred to as craft, and dwarves had the ability to craft. They can clearly create magic items, having done so in the book. They were taught their craft by their maker.

Covered by TheLoneRanger1979's post.

Those items could have been magical. Heck, if even 1% of their weapons were magical, that's still more than enough to equip dozens of very strong dwarves with magic weapons in Khazad Dum. While mithril was hard to mine, there was enough of it to make suits of armor and many weapons. The dwarves of Khazad Dum would have had access to those weapons and armor.

I don't think that's accurate.

Feanor and company resisted Morgoth with many times more orcs, many more dragons, balrogs, and more, and you think Sauron could have resisted them. He couldn't even resist Numenor at the height of his power and there's no way Numenor could have resisted the 1st age Noldo.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Yes, "magic" is fairly considered to be part of the physics of a fantasy realm. However, even though this may be so, it is usually called "magic", not "skill", even within the literature.

Speak plainly, now: by dwarves being "skilled", do you actually mean they are using "magic"?

There seem to be two categories of 'magical' things in Middle-Earth:

1) Elvish and exceptional Dwarvish and Numenorean/Dunadan craft - seen as magical by Hobbits and (at least most) Men, but not by their makers. IIRC Galadriel says that she doesn't understand what humans/hobbits mean when they call elf-crafted items 'magical'.

2) Truly potent items imbued with the spirit of a great crafter, which become the fulcrum of great events - the Silmarils, Gurthang, the Rings of Power.

In the first class, I do not think there is necessarily a clear distinction of kind (rather than degree)
'in-world' between Elvish weapons that are "merely" astonishingly well-made and those with 'special properties' like Sting/Orcrist/Glamdring's orc-detection.

So if we are going to translate into D&D terms we have to make a largely arbitrary decision, and I think it is at least defensible to say that weapons made by Elvish artisans and the greater Dwarvish and Numenorean ones are the equivalent of +1 magical weapons, even if they have no 'overt' powers.

TL;DR - The distinction between magical and non-magical doesn't work in Middle-Earth the way it does in D&D.

I don't think that's accurate.

Sauron was defeated and (temporarily) killed by the Last Alliance with the Ring on his finger and thus at a much higher power-level than he has at the time of LOTR.

Sauron, pre-Ring, was defeated by a magical dog in the First Age.

Middle-Earth has fallen a long way by the time of LOTR. Sauron is like a WWII battleship surviving in a post-apocalyptic age where the best anybody else has is cannon-armed wooden sailing ships: powerful but counterable in its original time, but now an overwhelmingly superior force.

 

[Maxperson]

So if we are going to translate into D&D terms we have to make a largely arbitrary decision, and I think it is at least defensible to say that weapons made by Elvish artisans and the greater Dwarvish and Numenorean ones are the equivalent of +1 magical weapons, even if they have no 'overt' powers.

The dwarves were unparalleled in their ability. If elvish and Numenorean craft is +1 magic at the basic level, dwarven craft should be +2 magic at the basic level. Quality dwarven work (to dwarves) would be +3. +4 and over would be given over to the named weaponry of the races.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There seem to be two categories of 'magical' things in Middle-Earth:

1) Elvish and exceptional Dwarvish and Numenorean/Dunadan craft - seen as magical by Hobbits and (at least most) Men, but not by their makers. IIRC Galadriel says that she doesn't understand what humans/hobbits mean when they call elf-crafted items 'magical'.

2) Truly potent items imbued with the spirit of a great crafter, which become the fulcrum of great events - the Silmarils, Gurthang, the Rings of Power.

In the first class, I do not think there is necessarily a clear distinction of kind (rather than degree)
'in-world' between Elvish weapons that are "merely" astonishingly well-made and those with 'special properties' like Sting/Orcrist/Glamdring's orc-detection.

So if we are going to translate into D&D terms we have to make a largely arbitrary decision, and I think it is at least defensible to say that weapons made by Elvish artisans and the greater Dwarvish and Numenorean ones are the equivalent of +1 magical weapons, even if they have no 'overt' powers.

TL;DR - The distinction between magical and non-magical doesn't work in Middle-Earth the way it does in D&D.

Which goes back to the first thing I said in this thread: D&D magic is significantly different from Middle Earth magic. And in all ways, ubiquity of items among them.

Sauron was defeated and (temporarily) killed by the Last Alliance with the Ring on his finger and thus at a much higher power-level than he has at the time of LOTR.

Sauron, pre-Ring, was defeated by a magical dog in the First Age.

Middle-Earth has fallen a long way by the time of LOTR. Sauron is like a WWII battleship surviving in a post-apocalyptic age where the best anybody else has is cannon-armed wooden sailing ships: powerful but counterable in its original time, but now an overwhelmingly superior force.

Point clearly & concisely made. Conceded. Sauron wasn't "all that & a bag of chips."

Still doesn't change my position about the rarity of magic items in Middle Earth. Everyone is still facing an ELE- if anyone has magic that could aid those seeking to defeat him, there's no point in withholding it from the Fellowship. That they're not kitted out with better gear is a strong implication that there isn't a lot of real magic- stuff dwarves, elves & supernatural beings would consider magic- being stockpiled anywhere.

 

[Maxperson]

Still doesn't change my position about the rarity of magic items in Middle Earth. Everyone is still facing an ELE- if anyone has magic that could aid those seeking to defeat him, there's no point in withholding it from the Fellowship. That they're not kitted out with better gear is a strong implication that there isn't a lot of real magic- stuff dwarves, elves & supernatural beings would consider magic- being stockpiled anywhere.

The dwarves aren't always rational and hate, HATE to give things away or just share. It's not in their nature. The Hobbit shows that when the dwarves flat out refuse to give up the Laketown gold that Smaug took. The Silmarillion shows that all over the place when dwarves are talked about. They would, and do cut off their noses to spite their faces. The elves wouldn't have as much in the way of magical arms as the dwarves would, having lost much of it in the wars with Morgoth and Sauron.