Was I too vague?

[Space Coyote]

Something happened in a recent game session that made me question myself: Am I being too subtle? Let me describe 2 scenarios and see if I, as the DM, was not giving the players enough info:

1st Scenario
The party enters a large rectangular room through a metal door. The room is separated by a Prismatic Wall (opaque). The room is also protected which prevents any form of magical transport or alteration, so the party went through the wall, suffering quite a few mishaps.

Once the party does what they need to do, they discover the room is a dead end and they want to exit, but do not want to pass through the wall again, so they resort to various divination spells to help them. Unknown to the party, the Prismatic Wall only works one way. They can freely pass through it on the way out and leave the room unhindered.

-First the cleric casts a Divination spell and asks for the easiest way to get out of the room safely. I reply (trying to sound cryptic like the description says): "Walking is the easiest form of travel."
-Then the Cleric casts a Find the Path with the goal to find the way out of the dungeon. The FTP points back the way they came (back through the Prismatic Wall).
-Next, the Cleric casts a Commune and one of the questions is "Is there one simple way to bypass the harmful effects of the Prismatic Wall so we can leave this room?" and I gave the answer of "Yes".
-Finally, the Cleric casts another Divination and asks what is the one simple way of bypassing the harmful effects of the Prismatic Wall and I replied, "The most difficult journeys begin with a single step."

I was trying to tell the party that it was safe to simply walk out of the room.

2nd Scenario
The party encounters a strange room of small and tiny flying animated objects. These creatures are boosted with magic to have a high Damage Reduction and spell resistance and the party could not hurt them, although the objects were barely hurting the party either because they only did 1d3-1 and 1d4 damage. This module was converted from a 2nd edition module that described the objects as being invulnerable to any harm, but Dispel Magic could destroy 1d20 of them per spell. The party Wizard has permanent Arcane Sight and sees magical auras at will, as well as having high skill in Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcane.

During the fight I kept advising the Wizard player that he sees 'strong' magical auras around the objects. And that "they seem to be powered by magic". And "you deduce that these constructs are highly magical". I was trying to hint that a Dispel Magic or Anti-Magic will hurt them.

I would appreciate some input on my part. What could I have dont to be more "helpful" to the players? The Divination spell states "The advice can be as simple as a short phrase, or it might take the form of a cryptic rhyme or omen.". Perhaps I was being too cryptic in the first scenario with the Divination spells?

 

[Voadam]

Something happened in a recent game session that made me question myself: Am I being too subtle? Let me describe 2 scenarios and see if I, as the DM, was not giving the players enough info:

1st Scenario
The party enters a large rectangular room through a metal door. The room is separated by a Prismatic Wall (opaque). The room is also protected which prevents any form of magical transport or alteration, so the party went through the wall, suffering quite a few mishaps.

Once the party does what they need to do, they discover the room is a dead end and they want to exit, but do not want to pass through the wall again, so they resort to various divination spells to help them. Unknown to the party, the Prismatic Wall only works one way. They can freely pass through it on the way out and leave the room unhindered.

-First the cleric casts a Divination spell and asks for the easiest way to get out of the room safely. I reply (trying to sound cryptic like the description says): "Walking is the easiest form of travel."
-Then the Cleric casts a Find the Path with the goal to find the way out of the dungeon. The FTP points back the way they came (back through the Prismatic Wall).
-Next, the Cleric casts a Commune and one of the questions is "Is there one simple way to bypass the harmful effects of the Prismatic Wall so we can leave this room?" and I gave the answer of "Yes".
-Finally, the Cleric casts another Divination and asks what is the one simple way of bypassing the harmful effects of the Prismatic Wall and I replied, "The most difficult journeys begin with a single step."


I would appreciate some input on my part. What could I have dont to be more "helpful" to the players? The Divination spell states "The advice can be as simple as a short phrase, or it might take the form of a cryptic rhyme or omen.". Perhaps I was being too cryptic in the first scenario with the Divination spells?

The last divination is too cryptic, even knowing the wall is one way I can't see how "The most difficult journeys begin with a single step" is supposed to indicate "walk through from this side"

Something cryptic might be "Have faith and stride forth." which contains the explicit instruction stride forth from here and that all they need is faith that they will be OK.

 

[Vorput]

I actually think those were very good instructions, clues, and hints. You COULD have been more direct, but what you did give was very well done.

 

[Voadam]

2nd Scenario
The party encounters a strange room of small and tiny flying animated objects. These creatures are boosted with magic to have a high Damage Reduction and spell resistance and the party could not hurt them, although the objects were barely hurting the party either because they only did 1d3-1 and 1d4 damage. This module was converted from a 2nd edition module that described the objects as being invulnerable to any harm, but Dispel Magic could destroy 1d20 of them per spell. The party Wizard has permanent Arcane Sight and sees magical auras at will, as well as having high skill in Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcane.

During the fight I kept advising the Wizard player that he sees 'strong' magical auras around the objects. And that "they seem to be powered by magic". And "you deduce that these constructs are highly magical". I was trying to hint that a Dispel Magic or Anti-Magic will hurt them.

I would appreciate some input on my part.

"Magical" is different from a spell subject to dispel magic so thinking they are supernatural magic will not lead a player necessarily to thinking of dispel magic.

The only way to be more obvious is to say "With your arcane sight you see that these constructs are composed of magical fields. It is as if they were spell constructs, held together by magic."


Btw a way in 3e terms for them to be invulnerable would be for them to be made of force.

 

[Infiniti2000]

1. I don't like the setup, but maybe I'm missing information. Why didn't the party take down the wall in the first place? I would never willingly go through it. And, nothing you've provided makes me think it's okay to walk through on this side. Did you describe the colors as being dimmer from the other side, or something like that?

2. That would likely be sufficient for me, if I had anti-magic field. I would most likely not try the dispel magic because they are creatures and are not subject to dispelling. Your comments are obvious. Of course they're powered by magic, they're flying objects!

As evidenced from the thread about riddles, riddles/problems are only fun if the players solve them. Quite honestly, reading through your scenario one made me angry because if I were playing in that game I would be very frustrated. The cleric spent A LOT of resources to get basically no help on a situation that he had no way to know otherwise. If there was no cleric, how could the party have figured it out? You have to have other ways built in to help.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Scenario 1: Spellcraft DC 28 to know that they can simply walk through this side. The wizard in our group could make that on a 1, but I have no idea how much your PCs have invested in the skill.

Scenario 2: Meh. They'd just walk straight through it if they don't figure it out. The dispel magic trick doesn't seem necessary so it isn't that important.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Scenario 1: Spellcraft DC 28 to know that they can simply walk through this side. The wizard in our group could make that on a 1, but I have no idea how much your PCs have invested in the skill.

Scenario 2: Meh. They'd just walk straight through it if they don't figure it out. The dispel magic trick doesn't seem necessary so it isn't that important.

I agree with these. 'Gimmies' are typically handled by knowlege checks. The effect of the wall is Unique, even prismatic sphere hurts to walk out of if you arn't the caster. Perhaps, point out that all magic in your campaign isn't 100% out of SRD, and/or this effect is different somehow.

Senario 2 was fine. You could have gone down to the Animate Objects spell level and type (6th and transmution IIRC) to narrow it down that they are magically animated opposed to permanatly animated constructs. The puzzle apparently had multiple solutions so it's not that big of deal.

I'll have to look at the riddle thread, they really annoy me when used in games. You need to give enough information to solve the problem without giving it away. IE, if the characters don't look under the doormat for the key, they should be able to pick it, or bash the door in or any other number of solutions. Then the solution depends on the player's wit not the characters experience.

 

[KarinsDad]

I thought you gave really good clues.

People (myself included) are sometimes just dense. Don't berate yourself for doing a good job and having the players not really paying close attention to what you actually said.

Also, it is not necessary that your players figure out either one of these. Sooner or later, they will leave through the wall. Sooner or later, they will avoid the flying objects.

If they take a lot of time doing that, do not berate yourself for that. These are their decisions. I think you went out of your way to be informative to them, they just dropped the ball. Oh well.


PS. I really dislike the concept of having Knowledge or Spellcraft skill rolls always (or often) getting PCs out of the fire when they get stumped. People should use their own brains, not rely solely on good skills helping out. One of our 6th level PCs has a Spellcraft of 18 and it is sometimes mildly annoying that it is so high (+9 +5 Int +2 Know Arc +2 feat) since there are quite a few different rolls he (for all intents and purposes) cannot fail (or rarely fails) at a relatively low character level.

 

[Mistwell]

"Finally, the Cleric casts another Divination and asks what is the one simple way of bypassing the harmful effects of the Prismatic Wall and I replied, "The most difficult journeys begin with a single step.""

I don't think that was a fair answer. He didn't ask "bypass the harmful effects FROM THIS SIDE OF THE WALL", he asked "bypass the harmful effects of the wall". Which means your answer is false often. Stepping through the wall does not bypass the effects of the wall 50% of the time, it just does it from from one side. So the answer needed to imply that.

In addition, you said "the most difficult journey", which is again a misleading answer. It's actually the LEAST difficult journey.

Folks need to remember these are not just valuable spell slots, but they also cost money and sometimes experience points. Have fun with cryptic riddles, but give your players more than just a vague shot at figuring it out. MOST people given that answer should be able to figure it out.

 

[ceratitis]

i liked what you did. however i can understand how frustrated the party was, if it was me i'd try throwing stuff through the wall, maybe summened creatures but this suggestion i found very good (although if the have an indiana jones buff, its a no brainer):

Something cryptic might be "Have faith and stride forth." which contains the explicit instruction stride forth from here and that all they need is faith that they will be OK.

Z