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Wasting time with philosophical subjects

Jdvn1

Hanging in there. Better than the alternative.
Umbran said:
I'm not missing anything. I'm not disputing the assumption in the least, I am addressing the conclusion.

The size - physically or temporally - is required for the conclusion, but it is not sufficient. If there is a single set of rules governing that infinite space, then things in conflict with those rules will be imaginable, but not realizable within the space.

You need an infinte space, and a set of physical laws that infinitely varies throughout the space. And even then, you can't quite do it, because you can always imagine something that is in conflict with the local laws, "Yes, I know pigs can fly at Alpha Centauri, but I want a pig to fly here."
I must've been tired when I posted that, and/or was thinking of something else.

I'd mention a couple things, though:
A) We don't know all the rulkes of physics, our physical laws only describe what we have experienced. Carl Sagan once hypothesized that there might be a planet where everything is Nitrogen based -- as ours is Carbon based. Such a ecology would be very different from ours and involve a very different set of rules.
2) Technically, anything is possible. With our rules of quantum mechanics, an electron can be anywhere, with varying degrees of possibility. It's possible that every molecule in the room you're in will move to one corner of the room and you'll die. It's possible they'll recombine into a flying pig. It's possible they all do something you'd never expect. It's amazingly unlikely, but even our physics have a means for it.
 

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DaveStebbins

First Post
Turanil said:
So, Clark Ashton Smith once wrote: "In an infinite, eternal universe, there is nothing imaginable—or unimaginable—which might not happen, might not be true, somewhere or sometime."
From the same time period, my favorite quotes came from Lord Dunsany:

"Once, I found out the secret of the universe. I have forgotten what it was, but I know that the Creator does not take Creation seriously..." from The Hashish Man

"Thy life is long, Eternity is short. There is an eternity behind thee as well as one before. Hast thou bewailed the aeons that passed without thee, who art so much afraid of the aeons that shall pass?" -from Pegana

"We're mostly made what we are by some woman or other. We think it's our own cleverness, but we're wrong." from the play If

On the other hand, if it's deeper than The Tao of Pooh, I generally don't bother with it. :)

-Dave
 

RandomPrecision

First Post
How about a finite but boundless universe? Like the finite but boundless surface of a sphere. The universe is a big hypersphere, and our perception is of the three-dimensioned hypersurface.

It seems to me that this goes hand in hand with the old question "Can G-d make a rock even He couldn't lift?"

Just talking about that the other day. I once had a poll of people, both religious and atheistic, asking them (that presupposing God's existence) if God could do things that are logically impossible. It turned out to largely favor "yes". But off of that tangent, we know that God can either do things that are logically impossible, or he can't (it's called the Law of Excluded Middle; A is either true or false). If he cannot, then he couldn't have made a rock that he couldn't lift, since that is logically impossible, so the question is invalid. However, if God can do things that are logically impossible, then the answer is yes, he can lift a rock that not even he can lift, since logic doesn't restrict his actions.

As for philosophy, I've always been amused by agnostic ontology. While I might be walking the border of the no religion rule, I like to make the argument that one cannot prove either the existence or non-existence of God. I don't think belief is unreasonable, but I don't think we can actually know that God exists (or doesn't exist).

I also enjoy another neutral ground between theism and atheism, an idea propelled by Kant, Voltaire, and Nietzsche, among many others, but I feel that I take it to a different meaning. I call it syntheism, and unlike strong agnosticism, it is not a lack of both theism and atheism, but the perfect union of the two. Many similar ideas, such as some of the philosophers mentioned (for example, Voltaire's essay on how if God does not exist, man must invent him), take one side and paint it with the other, producing a bias. However, I don't look at true syntheism as theism with a hint of atheism, or atheism with religious flavor, meaning that ultimately, we cannot say that man created God, or that God created man. Rather, they create each other; they live in a sort of symbiosis. Without one, the other couldn't exist.

And sometime later tonight, I might remember the name of that guy who said that if the universe contained infinitely many stars, the sky would be infinitely bright. However, realize that he also postulated several excuses to provide for this, such as interposing matter, or starlight that hasn't yet reached us, and at least one other that I cannot remember, I believe.
 


RandomPrecision

First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
In an infite, eternal universe, this cannot exist. :cool:

The only thing that cannot be is nonbeing.

How about things that just don't make sense? Like things that violate the law of inpenetrability - that is, two objects can't occupy the same space and time.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
How about things that just don't make sense? Like things that violate the law of inpenetrability - that is, two objects can't occupy the same space and time.

Just 'cuz they don't make sense to you doesn't mean it's impossible. Our logic is very constraied by our observations. What we observe is a very small fraction of reality. Truth doesn't have to be anything like what we see.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Jdvn1 said:
A) We don't know all the rulkes of physics, our physical laws only describe what we have experienced. Carl Sagan once hypothesized that there might be a planet where everything is Nitrogen based -- as ours is Carbon based. Such a ecology would be very different from ours and involve a very different set of rules.

Hm. I thought Sagan had suggested silicon. I may be misremembering, but it would make more chemical sense to use silicon.

In any case, don't confuse local biochemical conventions with physical law. Nothing about using another element as a basis for life violates laws of physics. Those laws only describe what we've experienced, but we've got experience that covers a volume several billion light years across. We don't know everything, but that doesn't mean we know nothing.


2) Technically, anything is possible.

Not really. There are laws other than quantum mechanics that say that certain things cannot and will not happen. Laws may allow some things on a micro-scale that are not possible on the macro-scale.

It's possible that every molecule in the room you're in will move to one corner of the room and you'll die. It's possible they'll recombine into a flying pig. It's possible they all do something you'd never expect. It's amazingly unlikely, but even our physics have a means for it.

Yes and no. The laws of quantum mechanics say it is possible, but the laws of thermodynamics say it isn't. You don't get large numbers of atoms spontaneously jumping into more organized states. Nor is there enough mass of air in my room to generate a pig, even if the atoms were inclined to do so. Quantum mechanics isn't the only arbiter, you see. Energy conservation and thermodynamics will also have their say.
 

Jdvn1

Hanging in there. Better than the alternative.
Umbran said:
Hm. I thought Sagan had suggested silicon. I may be misremembering, but it would make more chemical sense to use silicon.

In any case, don't confuse local biochemical conventions with physical law. Nothing about using another element as a basis for life violates laws of physics. Those laws only describe what we've experienced, but we've got experience that covers a volume several billion light years across. We don't know everything, but that doesn't mean we know nothing.
The farther out our vision goes, the more limited information we have. We may know things from a few billion light years away, but remember that the information we get from there is a few billion years old. And, if we go back to our assumption that the universe is infinite, a few billion light years is nothing. We may not know nothing, but we only know very very little.
Umbran said:
Not really. There are laws other than quantum mechanics that say that certain things cannot and will not happen. Laws may allow some things on a micro-scale that are not possible on the macro-scale.

Yes and no. The laws of quantum mechanics say it is possible, but the laws of thermodynamics say it isn't. You don't get large numbers of atoms spontaneously jumping into more organized states. Nor is there enough mass of air in my room to generate a pig, even if the atoms were inclined to do so. Quantum mechanics isn't the only arbiter, you see. Energy conservation and thermodynamics will also have their say.
Actually, you do sometimes get atoms jumping into more organized states, it's just pretty rare. And, in theory, you could get a cluster jump into an organized state. And, in theory, you could get a flying pig in your room. In our universe, it's likely not going to happen, though, since a) our universe is not infinite as per the assumption and 2) it's very, very, very unlikely.

And don't call Quantum Mechanics a law, because it isn't. It's a set of theories which only work consistently in certain instances. Even the 'laws of thermodynamics' only work in certain instances, and an infinite universe isn't one of them. That's why the assumption is so important.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
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Jdvn1 said:
The farther out our vision goes, the more limited information we have.

Again, yes and no. In some ways, we can see farther away better than we can see nearby - we know the structures of distant nebulae better than we know our own Oort cloud, for example. Distant stars are easier to see than most asteroids, and so on.

And, in terms of determining what the very basic rules of physics are, the stars and high-energy objects are a darned good source of information, and we see them pretty well. In terms of the fundamental interactions, we know quite a bit.

We may know things from a few billion light years away, but remember that the information we get from there is a few billion years old.

Yes, and the age of that information is a help, rather than a hindrance. One you've seen one main sequence star, you've seen them all. Looking back in time allows us a greater bredth of information over a larger range of conditions - it increases our understanding, rather than limiting it.

And, if we go back to our assumption that the universe is infinite, a few billion light years is nothing. We may not know nothing, but we only know very very little.

To link this to another part of this thread - we cannot say how much we know (a sort of scientific agnosticism). Only a third party who knows a great deal more than us could say that we only have a small part of the picture. Unless you've been in contact with such an entity, no estimation of the completeness of our models can be made.

Actually, you do sometimes get atoms jumping into more organized states, it's just pretty rare. And, in theory, you could get a cluster jump into an organized state. And, in theory, you could get a flying pig in your room.

You're making an unfounded generalization that what is possible on a micro level is also possible on a macro level, that quantum mechanics trumps all other laws on all scales.

You're also hiding behind the word "very". "Very" conceals many things. "Very, very unlilikely" covers everything from winning the lottery and getting hit bylightning to a thing that would not have happened once even if the Universe were several thousands of times older than it is.

With probability, as with spacial and temporal measurement, you eventually hit a scale where measurement becomes meaningless - you can't measure a distance shorter than a Planck length, and beyond a certain point, an improbable event becomes impossible.

And don't call Quantum Mechanics a law, because it isn't. It's a set of theories which only work consistently in certain instances. Even the 'laws of thermodynamics' only work in certain instances, and an infinite universe isn't one of them. That's why the assumption is so important.

I don't know your education, but to a professional scientist, "law" equates to "sufficiently well-tested theory". And, like Newtonian gravity and Ensteinian Relativity, quantum mechanics has been put through the ringer. It makes every single piece of solid-state electronics on the planet run. The current models give amazingly accurate predictions from zero energy up through and beyond the energies found within stars. Up at that high end, it needs refinement. And up beyond that, when gravity starts to be an issue, we need work, yes.

But, down around where we live, in my room where this pig is supposed to show up, it works just fine, thanks. The "certain instances" you mention are the conditions seen throughout the billions and billions of cubic light years of space we can see. "Certain instances" means - "the visible Universe".
 

Abstraction

First Post
We are skirting around the concept of entropy here. Entropy states that in a closed system, disorder always goes up. A local pocket may have energy coming in, and thus disorder goes down, but the system as a whole always moves toward disorder. The only truly closed system is the entire universe. My big question is, if entropy has been rising since the big bang and disorder has thus been increasing steadily in the universe as a whole, what was the initial univers like when the entropy level was so small? In other words, if you moved from this point in time backwards through time toward the beginning universe, you should see higher and higher levels of order.
 

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