(Water & cover) Am I reading this right?

[Elemental]

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/wildenv/Underwater_Combat.html

"A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects."

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/combat/COVER.html

"You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover."

So by the RAW, it is completely impossible to attack a target who is underwater (even under one foot of crystal clear water)? Or is there something I'm missing?

 

[AuraSeer]

You can attack him if you like. You just can't successfully attack and do damage.

If you ever tried to swing a weapon at something under water, even if it's not very deep, you'll note that the impact with the surface steals most of your energy. It's pretty much impossible to connect with any force. In game terms, you just can't hit hard enough to hurt the target.

Of course that's an oversimplification, but that's par for the course in D&D. If you wanted to be realistic, you could instead give a hefty penalty to attack and damage, but that would have to be modified based on your size and weapon style. (A club might fail to penetrate at all. A heavy pick might have no penalty against a target within 1' of the surface.) There's no point putting that much complexity in the core rules, just to support a situation that is rare in most campaigns.

 

[Elemental]

You can attack him if you like. You just can't successfully attack and do damage.

If you ever tried to swing a weapon at something under water, even if it's not very deep, you'll note that the impact with the surface steals most of your energy. It's pretty much impossible to connect with any force. In game terms, you just can't hit hard enough to hurt the target.

Not even if the attacker has a STR of 50 or so? How about if they're using a spear or other piercing weapon, which don't mind water so much? How about if the attack is made of pure energy?

Of course that's an oversimplification, but that's par for the course in D&D. If you wanted to be realistic, you could instead give a hefty penalty to attack and damage, but that would have to be modified based on your size and weapon style. (A club might fail to penetrate at all. A heavy pick might have no penalty against a target within 1' of the surface.) There's no point putting that much complexity in the core rules, just to support a situation that is rare in most campaigns.

Oh, I instantly houseruled it so that immersion provided improved cover. But it's funny to think of the abuses that are possible otherwise. Off the top of my head--a cleric casts Animate Objects on his bath to follow him around. He casts a ranged spell, then uses his move action to hop in the bath, becoming completely impervious to all attacks!

Yeah, it won't make a lot of difference most of the time. I just wanted to be sure I was right in thinking that water provides complete protection against absolutely any sort of attack from the surface.

 

[Notmousse]

Even high powered rifles have a problem penetrating a few feet of water.

 

[Elethiomel]

Even high powered rifles have a problem penetrating a few feet of water.

Yes, but spears don't. Saying "Even high powered rifles can't (...)" doesn't mean "No medieval weapons can (...)".

 

[bestone]

I watched someone spear a fish underwater once!

That fish must have had paper skin!

Of course you can attack things underwater with the right weapons! Otherwise harpooning things would be impossible.
:/

This rule makes sense, but you'll have to use your better judgement. If they are 15 feet under water and your standing on say a boat trying to attack them, good luck.

If however, they are an inch or two under the waters surface, well, They are going to get hit.

Your right on how its written as raw. And if you only use things as raw then watch out for deep puddles, or wagons full of water that can make quick cover for pc's! *no im not serious *

 

[Notmousse]

Given the 5' cube world of DnD I find it hard to say that a spear thrust into water is going to do much more than minimal damage if it managed to hit at all.

Aside from the problem with kinetic energy being stolen by the surface of the water, you've got distorted perception from the light bending proterties of the water itself. I'd place this around 20% in clear water, and increase it as the clarity of the water degraded.

Honestly it's just a lot easier to say you can't hit people under water than add a ton of house rules for simulation's sake. If people try to cheese it, then I'm sure they'll be dealt with by their DM.

 

[Notmousse]

If you spear a fish it's still alive though (unless you spear it a whole bunch, or manage to crit). Given that they have so little HP I'd say that spears did minimal damage when striking underwater.

 

[green slime]

Honestly it's just a lot easier to say you can't hit people under water than add a ton of house rules for simulation's sake. If people try to cheese it, then I'm sure they'll be dealt with by their DM.

100% true, in a fantasy world where a strange thing such as "pressure damage" occurs. No wonder all recreational scuba divers in Eberron, Faerûn, & Greyhawkare are turned to mush.

 

[bestone]

All im saying is if you have a puddle thats a few inches deep, and someone is just under the surface, They shouldnt get that complete cover.

Raw they do

But you should be able to make a judgement call , as you would with many other things.

the 5' cube world i'll agree with you, if your fighting someone and they are in a square filled with water, they could very well be deep enough to not count.

But some situations need to be dealth with independantly. If something doesnt make sense at the time, make a judgement call.