Weakest PrCs

[Bryan898]

I always thought the Drunken Master PrC (CW) was pretty tame. Unless you make magical improvised weapons you're worthless against anything with DR. It was funny that they managed to make the monk worse.

Eye of Gruumsh- another worthless PrC

Gnome Giant Slayer- You could probably make a better giant killer as a fighter with the right choice of feats.

Rage Mage- they got nothing.

Ravager- nothing worth trading in your fighter levels for.

.. and that's just in CW.

 

[moritheil]

Arcane Archer from the more common ones. It gets some nifty abilities which would combine well with spellcasting, but gets no spellcasting. And its main ability is easily rivaled by a single 3rd-level spell.

Bye
Thanee

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. A dip into arcane archer can be very helpful for fighter/mage builds with clever use of certain spells (Respectfully, see? I remembered to avoid the term "gish" in your presence!)

Marshall - IME, Shining Blade is OK as a way to bide your time before Fist of Raziel.

Wayne - It's hilarious that the writer of Swiftblade was flamed. The class isn't totally bad if you only dip for four levels, but as a whole it gives up too many casting levels.

Rystil - I don't read Horizon Walker as calling out that the abilities only apply on those planes; rather, that text seems to be a clarification of how the ability works. Even if you rule that the planar stuff doesn't apply when not in those planes, surely this part is useful:

spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you.

Incidentally, no one has posted why rage mage sucks. I've never been tempted to play one, but care to post the rundown? Is it the limited number of rages per day?

 

[wayne62682]

Wayne - It's hilarious that the writer of Swiftblade was flamed. The class isn't totally bad if you only dip for four levels, but as a whole it gives up too many casting levels.

He was flamed more because his reasoning for most of the abilities being sucky compared to what you'd get as a straight caster was essentially that he WANTED the PrC to suck, and that it was supposed to be the "underdog", the guy who tries to be the equal of a full wizard but isn't.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Rystil - I don't read Horizon Walker as calling out that the abilities only apply on those planes; rather, that text seems to be a clarification of how the ability works. Even if you rule that the planar stuff doesn't apply when not in those planes, surely this part is useful:

Nope, you quoted the snippet just a tad out of context. The first part of that sentence is telling you that the alignment to which it refers is the plane's alignment. I admit that the text of that ability was written in a way that was hard to understand, but what it is trying to tell you is that while you are on an aligned plane, all abilities that affect those of the opposite alignment of the plane don't affect you. It then explains this better in the next sentence "You have the dominant alignment of the plane with regard to magic, but your behavior and any alignment-related Class Features you have are unaffected." So in other words, a Chaotic Evil fellow on Mount Celestia is unaffected by Dictums, Holy Words, or anything like that, but while on the Abyss or Material Plane, he is still affected.

 

[moritheil]

Nope, you quoted the snippet just a tad out of context. The first part of that sentence is telling you that the alignment to which it refers is the plane's alignment. I admit that the text of that ability was written in a way that was hard to understand, but what it is trying to tell you is that while you are on an aligned plane, all abilities that affect those of the opposite alignment of the plane don't affect you. It then explains this better in the next sentence "You have the dominant alignment of the plane with regard to magic, but your behavior and any alignment-related Class Features you have are unaffected." So in other words, a Chaotic Evil fellow on Mount Celestia is unaffected by Dictums, Holy Words, or anything like that, but while on the Abyss or Material Plane, he is still affected.

While the ability refers to a specific plane's alignment, I don't think we agree on how that text interacts with this statement, which provides context for all the terrain masteries:

Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not.

Admittedly, the second sentence does not explicitly call out aligned planar mastery since it is not a bonus to a skill check, attack roll, or damage roll. However, using the first sentence as a guide, it is quite clear that location is not necessary to benefit from mastery. As such, if there is a plane upon which this is true (I'll use your words):

"while you are on an aligned plane, all abilities that affect those of the opposite alignment of the plane don't affect you. "

Then you can gain that benefit elsewhere too.

Now, logically, that's every plane and every alignment except your own.

 

[Rystil Arden]

While the ability refers to a specific plane's alignment, I don't think we agree on how that text interacts with this statement, which provides context for all the terrain masteries:



Admittedly, the second sentence does not explicitly call out aligned planar mastery since it is not a bonus to a skill check, attack roll, or damage roll. However, using the first sentence as a guide, it is quite clear that location is not necessary to benefit from mastery. As such, if there is a plane upon which this is true (I'll use your words):

"while you are on an aligned plane, all abilities that affect those of the opposite alignment of the plane don't affect you. "

Then you can gain that benefit elsewhere too.

Now, logically, that's every plane and every alignment except your own.

But only on a plane that is aligned. Because it says "While you are on an aligned plane."

Similarly, you only gain a +30 foot speed on planes with no gravity or subjective gravity

You gain a +30-foot bonus to your fly speed on planes with no gravity or subjective gravity.

 

[WarlockLord]

Incidentally, no one has posted why rage mage sucks. I've never been tempted to play one, but care to post the rundown? Is it the limited number of rages per day?

It's because you have to multiclass out of caster, and get nothing. Your "spell rages" don't increase caster level, and are only for certain spells. Bleah.

 

[Nifft]

Why do you guys feel Vigilante is so weak? I don't get it. It seems quite decent to me.

I don't remember... I'll take a look at it tonight.

Cheers, -- N

 

[RigaMortus2]

Evangelist from Complete Divine. It's like a Cleric who converts people! But can't cast spells. Huh.

If twinked right, the Evangelist can "break" the game (I am exaggerating a bit of course). But seriously, for Diplomacer builds, the Evangelist is a must.

 

[Nifft]

Okay, Vigilante:

- Smite the Guilty sucks. You must personally witness a crime being committed (in your home city), and then you have three days to smite the perp. This sucks for an investigator who may be called into a crime scene after the crime has already been committed. And worse for a PC, who may want to travel.

- Quick Hide sucks. It's almost totally useless as written. I think they intended to allow you to make a Bluff check and a Hide check as a single Move action, but what they wrote won't actually help you hide any quicker than you otherwise could.

- Quick Search is okay, but better for a trapmonkey.

- Streetwise sucks. Do the writers not know what streetwise means? Why not a bonus on Sense Motive, Spot, or Profession(gambler)? C'mon, people!

- The-like abilities mostly suck. There's nothing wrong with detect evil at will. As to the others... why are you giving spell-like abilities to a spellcasting class? Ah, is it because the spells are Arcane, and thus he can't use them in armor? Yes, that's right. So you're a non-primary caster who gets no special bonus to AC, and you're not going to be wearing armor. Or you're not going to be casting many spells. Wait, you won't be casting many spells anyway, because you get very few spells per day.

So. It's a 3/4 BAB class with d8 hp, 6 skill points/level (from not a terrible list, but not a great one either). Your primary casting stat is Charisma, but you don't get Use Magic Device. You also don't get Bluff. Or Diplomacy. Bleah! Never mind, it's a bad skill list.

The spell list is also insane. They give magic mouth as a 1st level spell, but put see invisibility at 3rd level. Why? Oh, and one more lovely feature: this class that can't cast in armor also lacks any of the basic armor spells. No mage armor, no shield. Good luck with that smite.

Basically, it's a grab-bag of bad mechanics, which exhibit negative synergy (when they work at all).

And finally, the picture sucks.

- - -

All that, and it ain't even the worst of the bunch. Not by a long shot.

Cheers, -- N