Weapon implements and Prof bonus???

[Phoenix8008]

Okay, making a swordmage from the FRPG and one of the 1st level At-Will powers (Swordburst) uses the sword which is her implement for the keyword instead of weapon. Does the attack only include her INT modifier, or does she get the Proficiency bonus also since she is using her longsword? I can't find where it says definitively in the PHB anywhere.

I know it will also later include 1/2 level in the bonus as well as any enhancement bonus on the longsword once she gets a magical one.

Thanks for any help!

 

[WalterKovacs]

Just like with a pact blade or holy avenger used as an implement, the prof bonus doesn't apply. Only when the weapon keyword is used does the proficiency bonus apply.

 

[FireLance]

And the reason why you can't find it in the PHB is that it's stated in the FRPG.

 

[BendBars/LiftGates]

What he said. If the power has the Implement keyword, you only use the implement characteristics of the item. If the power has the Weapon keyword, you only use the weapon characteristics of the item, including proficiency bonus.

Basically, the proficiency bonus is designed to help you in your attacks versus AC. Since this defense is usually higher than the other three, and you don't want it to be a lot harder to hit AC than the others (though still just a little bit harder), you get a boost to your attacks in the form of a proficiency bonus.

 

[Larrin]

As far as i can tell, when you use a weapon as an implement you only get things you could normally get from other implements.

This is:
1) enhancement bonus
2)crit bonus dice (but NOT from high crit weapon property)
3) any relevant powers. (daily and at wills and properties all seem to be fair game unless they specify 'melee attack' or something)

Basically if it doesn't show up on a magic implement stat block (say orb +1, or Wand of icy terrain +2), you can't use it. This includes:
1)proficiency bonuses
2) weapon properties (brutal, high crit, versitile)
3) number of hands needed (you just need the one...wizards staves included (CS ruling))
4) type: axe, sword, flail. they mean nothing as far as feats, class features are concerned (obviously it matters wether or not you can use said weapon type as an implement, swordmages can only use blades for example, but nothing beyond that)
5) weapon based feats (power attack, TWF, etc)

Some swordmage implement powers use [w], this is the only time you should even think of looking on weapons table when using an implement. Even then you only look at the [w] and then you leave.

at least, those are the guidelines i would use, thats the interpretation i see.

 

[Siran Dunmorgan]

A new "Ask Wizards" muddies the waters somewhat, as there is now an official ruling to the effect that one does get the bonus from Weapon Focus when casting spells with the implement keyword through one's weapon:

Ask Wizards: 11/07/2008

It is still the case that one does not add the weapon's proficiency bonus to attack rolls made with the weapon, however.

—Siran Dunmorgan

 

[Zsig]

A new "Ask Wizards" muddies the waters somewhat, as there is now an official ruling to the effect that one does get the bonus from Weapon Focus when casting spells with the implement keyword through one's weapon:

Ask Wizards: 11/07/2008

It is still the case that one does not add the weapon's proficiency bonus to attack rolls made with the weapon, however.

—Siran Dunmorgan

That's quite interesting as it makes Wizard of the Spiral Tower a very good choice since with a single feat (weapon focus) you'll be getting bonuses to all your wizard spells.

Same holds true for the warlock and his pact weapon I guess.

Why get Astral Fire, Raging Storm, Burning Blizzard etc, when with a single feat you achieve the same result.

I think I'm a bit confused.

 

[FireLance]

Why get Astral Fire, Raging Storm, Burning Blizzard etc, when with a single feat you achieve the same result.

I think I'm a bit confused.

They're for the other spellcasters who don't have weapon implements, of course.

EDIT to add: Some of the magical non-weapon implements have rather nice effects, so using a weapon implement instead of them does have an opportunity cost.

 

[Zsig]

EDIT to add: Some of the magical non-weapon implements have rather nice effects, so using a weapon implement instead of them does have an opportunity cost.

Yeah, but I thought that the opportunity cost was already counter balanced by the fact that you don't waste time/actions swapping out between weapon and implement.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Yeah, but I thought that the opportunity cost was already counter balanced by the fact that you don't waste time/actions swapping out between weapon and implement.

The bigger bonus would probably be that you can buy just a single item and have it useful for both weapon and implement powers.

That said ... you likely need to multiclass to actually get weapon based attacks. For a paladin ... you have to wait awhile to get a holy avenger. For a wizard that takes the path, or a pact blade/axe/sword/bow for a warlock ... you need to multiclass otherwise you are using the weapon as an implement without using it as a weapon outside of basic attacks.

So the swapping issue doesn't really come up for characters that don't have a lot of weapon powers (or a lot of implement powers). In that case, the bonus of the weapon focus feat might make picking up an otherwise inferior weapon implement instead of going with the implement with the better ability.