Weapon Powers and improvised weapons

[Keenath]

An interesting question came up today. Can you use improvised weapons other than "unarmed" with weapon powers?

For example, I know I can Brute Strike with my fist -- but can I Brute Strike with a chair?

PHB page 56 says, "Many [powers] can be used only if you’re wielding a weapon. (You can use an unarmed attack as your weapon.)"

PHB page 215 lists "Improvised Weapons" as a weapon category, and they're in the table on 219.


So... Can I use a chair as my "weapon"? My player thinks he can, citing that improvised weapons are still weapons. He sees the "unarmed" reference on page 56 as an example to clarify that unarmed is allowable.

I see page 56 as an example of "the exception that proves the rule". They specifically permit Unarmed as being usable with weapon powers, which means they're making an exception to the unstated rule that improvised weapons don't count for Weapon powers. Certainly, when I read "...can be used only if you’re wielding a weapon", my immediate assumption is that they mean a manufactured, purpose-built weapon (or a natural weapon that is, again, intended for that specific purpose). The parenthetical note then changes that understanding by specifically including unarmed -- but that leaves out chairs, candlesticks, and mugs of beer... doesn't it?


Side note: I noticed that in 4e there's no penalty for using improvised weapons (including unarmed attacks) other than that they grant no proficiency bonus. You don't take OAs for punching an armed dude in the face or smashing him with a folding chair.

 

[Tale]

I see page 56 as an example of "the exception that proves the rule". They specifically permit Unarmed as being usable with weapon powers, which means they're making an exception to the unstated rule that improvised weapons don't count for Weapon powers. Certainly, when I read "...can be used only if you’re wielding a weapon", my immediate assumption is that they mean a manufactured, purpose-built weapon (or a natural weapon that is, again, intended for that specific purpose). The parenthetical note then changes that understanding by specifically including unarmed -- but that leaves out chairs, candlesticks, and mugs of beer... doesn't it?

You're making some very unncessary assumptions. Weapon does indeed include improvised weapons. If it's limited to a particular subset of weapons, it will say so. Such as Sneak Attack's limitation.

How's that for an exception that proves the rule? Sneak Attack's explicit limitation to specific weapons is an exception to the rule that there are no limitations.

 

[AverageTable]

I see page 56 as an example of "the exception that proves the rule". They specifically permit Unarmed as being usable with weapon powers, which means they're making an exception to the unstated rule that improvised weapons don't count for Weapon powers.

This isn't an unreasonable interpretation; but I don't think it's the intended one.

I believe that all when meant when they said that an unarmed attack counts as a weapon is, "Some people might assume that body parts don't count as 'weapons'; but our intent is that they do." In other words, I think all they're doing is proactively correcting people who would assume that things like fists and feet are not "weapons".

 

[Andur]

Improvised Weapons by any means are Weapons. They are weapons by default definition of having "weapon" in their description, they are weapons by the rules, they are weapons, period.

The unarmed "qualifier" is to remind people that unarmed is not something "super special" it is simply a type of improvised weapon.

 

[DracoSuave]

Improvised Weapons have an entry on the Weapons chart. Ergo, they are Weapons.

Case. Closed.

 

[Mengu]

I see no reason why a Halfling Ranger shouldn't be able to Twin Strike a Guard Drake with a pair coconuts or a Dwarf Warlord shouldn't be able to Furious Smash an Orc Berserker with an empty keg.

 

[DracoSuave]

I see no reason why a Halfling Ranger shouldn't be able to Twin Strike a Guard Drake with a pair coconuts or a Dwarf Warlord shouldn't be able to Furious Smash an Orc Berserker with an empty keg.

Blinding Barrage with pots of hot soup!

 

[Keenath]

Okay, I guess I agree with that.

I suppose it just seems weird to put "you must use a weapon" as a limitation when it turns out that ANYTHING is a weapon.

 

[Dalzig]

Okay, I guess I agree with that.

I suppose it just seems weird to put "you must use a weapon" as a limitation when it turns out that ANYTHING is a weapon.

It's not "you must use a weapon," it's "you can use your weapon's enhancement bonus on this attack."

 

[small pumpkin man]

Okay, I guess I agree with that.

I suppose it just seems weird to put "you must use a weapon" as a limitation when it turns out that ANYTHING is a weapon.

The point is that many of the power's stats (such as range, damage, keywords) come from what weapon you're using, you can't chose "no weapon" because then those values would be undefined.