Weapon Proficiency Question

[HealingAura]

I have some questions about Weapons Proficiency:

The racial feat Eladrin Soldier (You gain proficiency with all spears and a
+2 feat bonus to damage rolls with longswords and all spears.) gives you proficiency with all weapons of the spear category.

1. So does it grant you proficiency with Urgrosh? (Double Weapon Axe/Spear) Can you use it as an Axe and still gain proficiency bonus?

2. Can you use Longspear (Two Handed Polearm/Spear) as a Polearm and still gain proficiency bonus?

 

[Nifft]

1a) Yes.
1b) No, but only because your question is flawed: no matter how you use an Urgosh, it is 100% axe and 100% spear. You can't "use it as" one or the other. It's always both.

2) Yes, because it's a Spear. You could also use the exotic superior Greatspear.

Cheers, -- N

 

[javcs]

Nifft is correct ... and that is why Eladrin Soldier is a very nice feat - it nets you more weapon proficiencies than any other feat and gives you a bonus to damage with all those new weapons you're proficient with.

Granted, the rules could be a little bit more clear on feats that affect a particular category of weapon interact with weapons that are multiple categories. It's an oversight that wouldn't have been too hard to have been corrected.

 

[DracoSuave]

Granted, the rules could be a little bit more clear on feats that affect a particular category of weapon interact with weapons that are multiple categories. It's an oversight that wouldn't have been too hard to have been corrected.

The rules regarding that is very simple tho: Is it an X? Then it benefits from X feats. And before someone cries foul, it's -realistic- that way. If they didn't want it to benefit from having multiple types, they'd not have given it multiple types.

And with double weapons, it's not like it's two seperate weapons attached with a bond of love forged in the fires of a brief meeting and only a silk cord between them. They are connected by far more, in such a way that you don't 'attack with one end' exclusively. If you know how to use an urgrosh, then you know how to use both ends, because if you don't know how to use both ends, you're not using it correctly. I.e. you're not proficient.

Yes, this means both eladrin and dwarves can take a feat to be proficient in it for different reasons, but they both learn to use the weapon properly--they use both ends even if the game rules don't indicate it through die-rolls.

The idea that double weapons are seperate weapons on a stick is laughable--if you try using a doublesword as you would a long sword you end up stabbing yourself in the gut.

 

[Thundershield]

While the questions have already been answered to the fullest in this thread, I figured I'd add that I found house-ruling the Eladrin Soldier and Dwarven Weapon Training feats works nicely:

The feats no longer grant proficiency with superior weapons and instead the feat bonus to damage increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level.

This ensures that the feats will also have some appeal later on (beyond simply being a fancy "Weapon Proficiency (Greatspear)" feat) and means the superior weapons stay somewhat uncommon and exotic.

Merely my 2 cents..

 

[tmatk]

Are we sure about this ruling? Regardless of its groups, Urgosh is a superior weapon. PHB reads - "You can learn to use a superior weapon by taking the Weapon Proficiency feat."

 

[Thundershield]

Are we sure about this ruling? Regardless of its groups, Urgosh is a superior weapon. PHB reads - "You can learn to use a superior weapon by taking the Weapon Proficiency feat."

Yes, it's (from my understanding) a widely accepted way of understanding this.

The PHB says nowhere that the Weapon Proficiency feat is the only way to learn how to use a superior weapon. Otherwise the "Whip Training" and "Bola Training" feats from Dragon would lose a good deal of their appeal.

But as I've stated above, I personally change the racial feats in my campaigns to not grant proficiency with superior weapons. They're still very useful without that benefit, and I do grant them a different benefit to compensate.

 

[tmatk]

Yes, it's (from my understanding) a widely accepted way of understanding this.

The PHB says nowhere that the Weapon Proficiency feat is the only way to learn how to use a superior weapon. Otherwise the "Whip Training" and "Bola Training" feats from Dragon would lose a good deal of their appeal.

But as I've stated above, I personally change the racial feats in my campaigns to not grant proficiency with superior weapons. They're still very useful without that benefit, and I do grant them a different benefit to compensate.

Hmm, ok I guess I see your point there. At least the bola and whip actually cost a feat. That eladrin feat seems too good a deal on a superior weapon . I agree, house rule of some kind is needed!

 

[DracoSuave]

The Superior weapon thing doesn't bother me. It's a racial feat, so should be better than equivalent tier feats at that tier. But at the same time, it's a heroic feat, it doesn't -have- to be awesome beyond heroic tier.

Thing is, characters who hand-to-hand fight have martial weapon proficiency.

But more importantly, those feats are hardly unique anymore. Eberron gives Halflings one and Drow one, and they work under the Superior+2 banner, rather than the Martial+2/3/4.

I look at it this way. Don't you think they introduced Superior Hammers, Axes, and Spears in AV -specificly- so that DWT and ES can actually -do- something other than be a featswap in epic tier?

 

[rainsinger]

That's also why the dwarven weapon training (or whatever it's called) is flat out an amazing feat as well. Getting proficiency in roughly 6 superior weapons for one feat AND getting bonuses... no brainer for any dwarf that uses weapons at all.