Weapon size and reach madness.

[Hof]

Hello all.
Earlier my gaming group was having a discussion regarding weapon size and reach. As I understand it, reach relies on the size of the wielder. An ogre attacking with a longsword has 10 foot reach. Reach weapons for larger creatures double this normal reach. All simple and understandable.

One of our group plays a goliath wielding a large greatsword. (I'm aware that he might not be allowed to do so on account of powerful build oddness, but that is not the issue here.) He thinks he should be entitled to the reach of a large creature merely because he is wielding a large weapon. Wrong of course: even if the powerful build ability itself did not state that his reach hadn't changed, reach is dependant on the wielders actual size.

So.. What if he were to wield a large-size longspear (assuming he may, bear with me). His reach would be 5-10ft. yes? Because his reach is dependant on his own (5ft.) and the fact that he is using a reach weapon.
Now what of the ogre who wields a medium-sized longspear? He is wielding a reach weapon, so 10-20 ft.? With a tiny spear? And what of the two-weapon fighting Titan ranger, who uses a huge warhammer (reach 0-15 ft.) in his primary hand and a medium sized longspear (reach 15-30ft.) as a light weapon in his off-hand.

Rediculous examples, I know... But did I break or misinterpret the rules?

Hof.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The 3.5 Core Rules don't really cater for it - the Goliath with the Large longspear gets 10' exclusive reach, but the ogre with the Medium longspear isn't covered in the rules. (When discussing Large creatures, it specifies what happens when he uses a reach weapon of appropriate size.)

Savage Species had rules for this. They were almost good rules... they only need a slight tweak and then an update to 3.5 to be good rules.

Once that's done, what you end up with:
A reach weapon 'shifts' the base creature's natural reach outward by a certain amount; that amount is equal to the natural reach of a creature of the same size category as the weapon.

So a Medium creature normally threatens a depth of one square; a Medium reach weapon shifts his threatened area outward by one square, so he threatens a five foot wide ring - the squares 10 feet away from him.

An ogre normally threatens a depth of two squares. A Large reach weapon shifts his threatened area outward by two squares, so he threatens a ten foot wide ring - the squares 15 and 20 feet away from him. If he uses a Medium reach weapon instead, his reach is only shifted outward by one square, and he threatens the squares 10 and 15 feet away.

A Goliath with a Large longspear has his one-square-deep reach shifted out by ten feet, so he threatens the squares 15 feet away only.

As an exception to the pattern, a Tiny creature with a Tiny (or Small) reach weapon threatens at 5', but does not threaten his own square. A Small or larger creature treats a Tiny reach weapon as though it were not a reach weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[tempus_14]

Greatspear vs Ripper

In the complete fighter they showed the Greatspear
And in the Planar Handbook they introduced the Ripper

One of the players in the campaign I am running, He is not quite finished yet, would you combine both die sizes (which would make it a 4d6 damage weapon, I find that pretty overpowered) Would it have reach like the Ripper and would it take 2 exotic weapon proficiency feats to use. Any other info about using this apparrently phenomenal weapon would be apprieciated.

 

[Hof]

Thanks Hypersmurf for the weapon rules revision, I hadn't thought to recheck SS for that. Our goliath may be disappointed to hear you actually need a reach weapon to get reach, regardless how large your sword may be. But then, he's powerful enough as is.

@Tempus_14: I'm unsure what you mean. The ripper and greatspear are two different weapons, so in what way do you wish to combine them?

 

[irdeggman]

Unless I am mistaken the great spear is like the old long spear (only bigger).

And the long spear specifically requires two hands to wield (regardless of the creature's size). So it can't be combined with another weapon for use (i.e., two weapon fighting).

 

[Hypersmurf]

And the long spear specifically requires two hands to wield (regardless of the creature's size). So it can't be combined with another weapon for use (i.e., two weapon fighting).

Source? If a Large creature wields a Medium longspear, it's considered a one-handed weapon, and thus can be wielded in one hand. Unless I'm missing something...?

-Hyp.

 

[Presto2112]

Hello all.
One of our group plays a goliath wielding a large greatsword. (I'm aware that he might not be allowed to do so on account of powerful build oddness, but that is not the issue here.) He thinks he should be entitled to the reach of a large creature merely because he is wielding a large weapon. Wrong of course: even if the powerful build ability itself did not state that his reach hadn't changed, reach is dependant on the wielders actual size.

So.. What if he were to wield a large-size longspear (assuming he may, bear with me). His reach would be 5-10ft. yes? Because his reach is dependant on his own (5ft.) and the fact that he is using a reach weapon.
Now what of the ogre who wields a medium-sized longspear? He is wielding a reach weapon, so 10-20 ft.? With a tiny spear? And what of the two-weapon fighting Titan ranger, who uses a huge warhammer (reach 0-15 ft.) in his primary hand and a medium sized longspear (reach 15-30ft.) as a light weapon in his off-hand.

Rediculous examples, I know... But did I break or misinterpret the rules?

Hof.

You interpreted the rules correctly. This Goliath would not achieve reach with his weapon unless he is a barbarian with the optional Mountain Rage which actually temporarily increases his size. THEN he'd have reach.

 

[irdeggman]

Source? If a Large creature wields a Medium longspear, it's considered a one-handed weapon, and thus can be wielded in one hand. Unless I'm missing something...?

-Hyp.

Good point.

Found info in PHB (pg 113) under Inappropriate Sized Weapons

“. . .A Small greatsword (a two-handed weapon for a Small creature) is considered a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature.”

This is tempered by the following “A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder.”

So a semblance of balance is maintained.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So a semblance of balance is maintained.

Some agree, some disagree.

For example, some think that the potential to wield a spiked chain in each hand is horrifying.

Others think that spending three feats (Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting) to wield two Small Spiked Chains dealing 1d6 20/x2 damage at a -4 on your attack rolls (-2 TWF, -2 Inappropriate size) isn't a big deal.

-Hyp.

 

[3d6]

Obviously the game designers aren't to worried about one-handed spiked chains: the kusari-gama is basically a one-handed spiked chain and is in the DMG.