Weapon Speed

[AnonymousOne]

Yes. I'm planning on letting it work with two weapon fighting.

right... so a Rogue can now wield a Light weapon in the off-hand and get 3 attacks out of it? Kick Imp. TWF to the curb.

Rogue BAB +10/+5 using a dagger in the offhand and a single primary strike in the other.

+8/+6/+6/+6

You're looking at a total net increase in BAB.
To quote Star Wars: "I hope you know what you're doing."

 

[Felnar]

First off, I admit that our group never used the Weapon Speed in AD&D.

Now that I've revealed that, I'm wondering if there is a good way and a good reason to incorporate Weapon Speed into the 3.5 d20 system.

Can someone please help?

Thank you.

Sean Reynolds has a rant on the subject
the last two paragraphs apply specifically

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Sean Reynolds has a rant on the subject
the last two paragraphs apply specifically

Interesting rant. I wish he'd addressed more on the idea of feats similar to Rapid Shot for light and one-handed weapons.

I'm not looking to bring in weapon speed for every character and creature, at this point. I'm looking to make a feat that grants an extra attack for light and one handed weapons.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

right... so a Rogue can now wield a Light weapon in the off-hand and get 3 attacks out of it? Kick Imp. TWF to the curb.

Rogue BAB +10/+5 using a dagger in the offhand and a single primary strike in the other.

+8/+6/+6/+6

You're looking at a total net increase in BAB.
To quote Star Wars: "I hope you know what you're doing."

Well, let's see. I'm not quite following your math, so I'm gonna try my own. Please, correct me if I make any mistakes.

This is based off of the following rough drafts of the Rapid Strike feat:

RAPID STRIKE (LIGHT MELEE WEAPONS) [GENERAL]
You can use light melee weapons with exceptional speed.
Prerequisites: Dex 15
Benifit: You get one extra attack per round with a light melee weapon. The extra attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra attack and the normal one) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
Special: A fighter may select Rapid Strike (Light Melee Weapons) as one of his fighter bonus feats.​

Let's use your a character with a starting BAB of +10/+5. He'll be using either a light melee weapon or a pair of light melee weapons in these examples.

Normal (only one light melee weapon):

BAB: +10/+5​

Two-Weapon Fighting with light off-hand weapon:

P: +8/+3
S: +8​

Rapid Strike feat:

P: +8/+8/+3​

Two-Weapon Fighting with light off-hand weapon and Rapid Strike feat:

P: +6/+6/+1
S: +6​

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting:

P: +8/+3
S: +8/+3​

Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Strike feat:

P: +6/+6/+1
S: +6/+1​

Note: I've changed the first feat in the chain to only apply to light melee weapons. And, it only grants one bonus attack in an attempt to keep it on par with Two Weapon Fighting. I'm trying to come up with the wording for at least two additional (and similar) feats. One would allow a third attack with a light melee weapon. The other would allow a single bonus attack with a one-handed melee weapon.

I'll give it some thought and post more.

Thank you, AnonymousOne, for showing me the error of my ways in trying to add two bonus attacks with only one feat. I really appreciate it.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

RAPID STRIKE, IMPROVED (LIGHT MELEE WEAPONS) [GENERAL]
You are an expert in using light melee weapons with exceptional speed.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Rapid Strike (Light Melee Weapons), base attack bonus +6
Benifit: You get a second extra attack per round with a light melee weapon. The extra attack is at your highest base attack bonus, albeit at a -5 penalty). And, each attack you make in that round (the extra attacks and the normal one) take a -2 penalty (in addition to the -5 for the second extra attack). You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Rapid Strike (Light Melee Weapons) as one of his fighter bonus feats.​

Here's the one for One-Handed Melee Weapons:

RAPID STRIKE (ONE-HANDED MELEE WEAPONS) [GENERAL]
You can use one-handed melee weapons with exceptional speed.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Dex 15, Rapid Strike (Light Melee Weapons), base attack bonus +6
Benifit: You get one extra attack per round with a one-handed melee weapon. The extra attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra attack and the normal one) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
Special: A fighter may select Rapid Strike (One-Handed Melee Weapons) as one of his fighter bonus feats.​

I added the strength requirement because the one-handed melee weapons, in general, seem a little more unwieldy.

Also, having two separate branches in this feat tree might result in some more interesting choices for characters.

Questions/Thoughts/Comments?

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

If you're going to include weapon speed, I think you should also include weapon reach as well. For example, there is the oft spouted argument that the dagger wielder should get more attacks against the greatsword wielder. What they forget, is that the greatsword wielder gets at least an attack of opportunity against the dagger wielder. And frankly in real life, that hit would be a critical hit unless the dagger wielder was wearing full plate armor. Also an experienced greatsword fighter nows how to fight in close with the greatsword. There are several illustrated historical 'fight-book' on the net that deal with this.

Another point to consider is that in real life, you cannot apply your full strength to a light weapon. In d20 terms it is more like one-half to one-quarter. On the opposite end of the scale, a two-handed weapon like a great axe is ideal for a high strength character. Once that heavy head gains momentum, the impact is hellacious.

In short, if you want your players to select their weapons more strategicallly (which I personally like as well), then you really need to consider the weapon reach and mass as well as speed. There are good reasons why knights stopped fighting each other with one-handed swords and switched to halberds, poleaxes, bec-de-corbins, and two-handed swords instead of daggers, shortswords, and rapiers. I hope your system can explain that. Good luck!

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

If you're going to include weapon speed, I think you should also include weapon reach as well. ... In short, if you want your players to select their weapons more strategicallly (which I personally like as well), then you really need to consider the weapon reach and mass as well as speed. There are good reasons why knights stopped fighting each other with one-handed swords and switched to halberds, poleaxes, bec-de-corbins, and two-handed swords instead of daggers, shortswords, and rapiers. I hope your system can explain that. Good luck!

Thanks!

I'll keep that in mind and I will try to design a solution that works for it, too. My guidelines that I'm using, right now, is that the solution must be feat based. So, my first question would be "Are there already feats that increase the power of the heavier weapons? If so, could there be an improved version of the feat?" Next, I'll be thinking about ways to implement new feats. It's gonna require some more reading on my part. I need to read some good stories that show heavy weapon fighters going against light weapon fighters and that tell what they do against the quicker opponents.

I do like the attack of opportunity idea. It's worth some thought.

 

[Azlan]

There are good reasons why knights stopped fighting each other with one-handed swords and switched to halberds, poleaxes, bec-de-corbins, and two-handed swords instead of daggers, shortswords, and rapiers.

Yes, but that historical switch in weaponry had nothing to do with a weapon's speed or reach, and everything to do with a weapon's ability to penetrate armor (which, BTW, D&D 3.x does nothing to address).

 

[Azlan]

Sean Reynolds has a rant on the subject
the last two paragraphs apply specifically

I've heard this sort of argument before, and I've even read that particular rant before. What is not being taken into consideration, in those arguments and in that rant, is that melee combatants seldom remain at a respectable "dueling" distance from each other.

But, yes, a combatant with a weapon with a much greater reach – even if it's slow and heavy – should always get the first attack. But after that first attack, assuming the combatant with the short, fast weapon survives it (pressumably, by dodging), the latter combatant should be able to close-in and get 2 or 3 quick jabs with his weapon, before the former combatant is able to break away and backpeddle, and bring his long, heavy weapon to bear again.

Whatever, weapon speed should be at least some factor in combat, and not dispensed with altogether as D&D does.

Here is what I think weapon speed should affect...

- Iterative attacks per round, when taking a full-round action to make multiple attacks.

- Attacks of Opportunity (it should be easier to react to a sudden drop of your opponent's threat with your dagger than it is, with your greataxe).

- Close combat, i.e. melee while grappling.

 

[JDJblatherings]

I've been in hundreds of dagegr versus polearm combats and the only ones a knife/dagger fighter really has a chance at are in hugely differigngskill levels and beign able to grab the other guys pole arm. The "speed" of a dagger is a pretty much a gamer myth.