Weapon Speed

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Sarcasm ... ouch... :\

No sarcasm was intended. I really do honestly appreciate the feedback. My apologies if anything I've written makes it seem otherwise.

EDIT: If it weren't for your feedback, I might not have found that error on my part until the feat were already in play. Thank you.

 

[Felnar]

Interesting rant. I wish he'd addressed more on the idea of feats similar to Rapid Shot for light and one-handed weapons.

I'm not looking to bring in weapon speed for every character and creature, at this point. I'm looking to make a feat that grants an extra attack for light and one handed weapons.

He did address that, in the second to last paragraph ("Finally, you could"). He presents it as a combat option that does not require a feat. If your goal isnt weapon speed simulation, and is actually to buff light/onehanded weapons you should look for the threads on balancing 2handedweapons with sword&shield and twoweaponfighting OR have more grappling in your game (shortsword can be used in a grapple)

I've heard this sort of argument before, and I've even read that particular rant before. What is not being taken into consideration, in those arguments and in that rant, is that melee combatants seldom remain at a respectable "dueling" distance from each other.

But, yes, a combatant with a weapon with a much greater reach – even if it's slow and heavy – should always get the first attack. But after that first attack, assuming the combatant with the short, fast weapon survives it (pressumably, by dodging), the latter combatant should be able to close-in and get 2 or 3 quick jabs with his weapon, before the former combatant is able to break away and backpeddle, and bring his long, heavy weapon to bear again.

Whatever, weapon speed should be at least some factor in combat, and not dispensed with altogether as D&D does.

Here is what I think weapon speed should affect...

- Iterative attacks per round, when taking a full-round action to make multiple attacks.

- Attacks of Opportunity (it should be easier to react to a sudden drop of your opponent's threat with your dagger than it is, with your greataxe).

- Close combat, i.e. melee while grappling.

greater reach does not equal slow and heavy (e.g. the spear, the staff, some polearms)
thrusting/skewer-type weapons generally still prevent opponents from closing-in after a miss
(will each weapon get a "recovery speed" mechanic to show this?)

You state what you think weapon speed should affect, but what should affect weapon speed?
If I put on gauntlets of ogre strength, does my greataxe become as fast as your dagger?
Is a halfling dagger faster than a human dagger? Is mithral faster because it weighs less?

If i use a warhammer and a dagger, how many iterative attacks will i get?
Whats the weapon speed of a Dwarven Urgrosh?

A very realistic weapon and armor simulation would be cool, if you could find a way around all the complexity/slowdown it brings with it.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Interesting rant. I wish he'd addressed more on the idea of feats similar to Rapid Shot for light and one-handed weapons.

He did address that, in the second to last paragraph ("Finally, you could"). He presents it as a combat option that does not require a feat. If your goal isnt weapon speed simulation, and is actually to buff light/onehanded weapons you should look for the threads on balancing 2handedweapons with sword&shield and twoweaponfighting OR have more grappling in your game (shortsword can be used in a grapple)

Thanks... I guess I wasn't seeing that paragraph the same as you were.

I'll have a look for those threads. I know I'll need to offer some feats to the heavy weapon fighters to maintain balance between the light weapon rapid striker and the heavy weapon master warrior.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

A very realistic weapon and armor simulation would be cool, if you could find a way around all the complexity/slowdown it brings with it.

Yes, it would. The best I can do, right now, is create a few feats that may or may not be balanced, but will hopefully increase the fun.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

A very realistic weapon and armor simulation would be cool, if you could find a way around all the complexity/slowdown it brings with it.

Heh heh, not just cool but the Holy Grail of role playing games! I'd pay big money for that!

 

[Azlan]

greater reach does not equal slow and heavy (e.g. the spear, the staff, some polearms)

True. But in most cases, it does equate to being slow and heavy. And even with a relatively light-weight long spear used for thrusting, you would be relatively slow to bring the business end of your weapon to bear again, if someone with a shortsword somehow got past your spearhead and closed with you.

You state what you think weapon speed should affect, but what should affect weapon speed?

If I put on gauntlets of ogre strength, does my greataxe become as fast as your dagger?
Is a halfling dagger faster than a human dagger? Is mithral faster because it weighs less?

Heh. Well, if you put on gauntlets of ogre strength, does the skill check penalty of your suit of partial plate armor lessen? It should, but D&D doesn't take that into account, either.

Is a halfling dagger faster than a human dagger? Is mithral faster because it weighs less?

A halfling dagger would be slightly faster than a human dagger, in the hand of human-size creature, but not in the hand of a halfling-size creature. I suppose in the hand of a human, a halfling-size dagger would have the same speed (and, of course, the same damage) as a human-size stiletto, whatever that might be. Then again, the "fastest" weapon speed possible would be whatever it would be for a person making an unarmed attack.

And, yes, a mithral weapon would be slightly faster than its iron/steel counterpart because the mithril weapon weighs less. (Then again, by that same logic, wouldn't mithril bludgeoning and slashing weapons inflict less damage?)

A very realistic weapon and armor simulation would be cool, if you could find a way around all the complexity/slowdown it brings with it.

I think a happy medium could be found, if one was sought. As it stands now, D&D takes no consideration whatsoever the factors for weapon speed or for the penetration of weapon type versus armor type. While I, myself, am not looking for a totally or even mostly realistic system, I would at least like a nod toward realism regarding these weapon factors.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

And even with a relatively light-weight long spear used for thrusting, you would be relatively slow to bring the business end of your weapon to bear again, if someone with a shortsword somehow got past your spearhead and closed with you.

QFT

That's why I learned to fight with a polearm in close quarters. But getting past that first spear, polearm, or greatsword strike is not going to be easy, even with a tower shield! Sometimes I wonder if granting an attack of opportunity is enough. Maybe allowing the hit to be a confirmed crit?

It's also a really good reason to carry a backup weapon. Note that the landsknechts carried a katzbalgar (treat as shortsword) even when their primary was a zwiehander, halberd, or pike.

 

[JDJblatherings]

...That's why I learned to fight with a polearm in close quarters. But getting past that first spear, polearm, or greatsword strike is not going to be easy, even with a tower shield! Sometimes I wonder if granting an attack of opportunity is enough. Maybe allowing the hit to be a confirmed crit?

Mayhaps the attacker with the shorter weapon isn't allowed to close (and thus get an attack) if the oppoent with the longer weapon fends them off by delivering a successful attack on the AOO. Actullaly realistic and ficitinally supported, the badass with the big weapon swinging away at a circle of others unable or afraid to close with him.

 

[Meeki]

Don't let your system get to klunky you don't want to spend an hour looking up speed differences in weapons.

Just make feats like you were doing. D&D is a game where all weapons are basically dice and crits, regardless of weight. If you feel that a certain weapon should be able to dos omething different, i.e. greatsword, then make a feat for it that lets it do something like take an AoO against someone attacking with a one handed, light, or natural weapon with no reach.

I wouldn't add much to the base combat system. Feats are the way to go.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Mayhaps the attacker with the shorter weapon isn't allowed to close (and thus get an attack) if the oppoent with the longer weapon fends them off by delivering a successful attack on the AOO. Actullaly realistic and ficitinally supported, the badass with the big weapon swinging away at a circle of others unable or afraid to close with him.

Ah, but why are the enemies unable or afraid to close with him? It must be because Something Very Bad™ will happen. Either an automatic hit, auto crit, or a coup de grace. In my personal experience from both sides of the polearm, it is absolutely true that after being hit by the longer weapon, a wise fighter will not continue moving foward. Part of the reason is because he is busy defending himself from the attack. But the other part is if he did not defend himself, he would get hit in the face or square in the chest — basically receive a confirmed critical hit.

3.x already has attacks of opportunity for when a creature drops their guard for an instant. What happens when the same creature blatantly disregards their defence for the purpose of moving in close? The only way I can think of describing it in D&D is to call it as provoking an automatic critical hit. This way, only a true badass like King Arthur will allow himself to get impaled by a lance, climb up the lance, and kill Mordred with his sword.