Weapon Speeds For d20 Fantasy Gaming

[Water Bob]

Awhile back, I brainstormed on some rule ideas that wold bring weapon speed to the Conan RPG (which would also work with D&D 3.0/3.5). Nothing I developed really hit the spot for me. But, recently, I saw this rule in a Scarred Lands supplement, and it took my breath away. This is a well written rule that does a perfect job of bringing weapon speed factors to the game.

These rules take the position that a weapon speed factor mechanic is already in the game. Every weapon in the game has a SF of 5. When a speed factor is used, it's used as a penalty to the attack throw.

Speed Factors don't come into play until a character is skilled enough with a weapon to use it quickly in melee. This happens, for most classes, at 6th level (when the character is allowed two attacks instead of one).

Thus, a 5th level Soldier (Conan RPG class) would not use the Speed Factor rule because he only gets one attack per round. But, when he reaches 6th level, he's become skilled enough to use his weapon twice as fast as he used to, getting two attacks per round.

Because the 6th level Soldier gets +6 to hit with his strikes, his second blow is modified by his weapon's Speed Factor, reducing the chance to hit. Thus, a 6th level Soldier is +6/+1 to hit because of the weapon's speed factor.

(You can see how this would easily work with D&D classes, too.)




What the Scarred Lands rule does change the Speed Factor of weapons so that some weapons are quicker than standard and some weapons are slower than standard.

(The weapon examples I cite straight from the supplement, so they'll fit D&D games well. If playing the Conan RPG, you'll have to eyeball the weapon equivalents.)





QUICK WEAPONS HAVE A SPEED FACTOR OF 4.

Simple melee weapons, like the dagger, a gauntlet, halfspear, punching dagger, sickle, spiked gauntlet, or unarmed strike.

Simple ranged weapons like the dart.

Martial melee weapons like the cutlass, rapier, saber, sap, and scimitar.

Martial ranged weapons like the shortbow.

Exotic melee weapons like the kama, nunchaku, sai, siangham, and whip.

Exotic ranged weapons like the shuriken.





STANDARD WEAPONS REMAIN WITH A SPEED FACTOR OF 5.

Simple melee weapons like club, heavy mace, light mace, longspear, quarterstaff, and spear.

Simple ranged weapons like the javelin.

Martial melee weapons like the battleaxe, falchion, flail, guisarme, handaxe, heavyflail, kukri, kukrisword, light hammer, light pick, longsword, spearstaff, short sword, throwing axe, and warhammer.

Martial ranged weapons like the composite shortbow and the longbow.

Exotic melee weapons like the bastard sword, chain and weight, dwarven waraxe, gnome hooked hammer, hookspear, iron war fan, rope and weight, spiked chain, warscpeter.

Exotic ranged weapons like the repeating light crossbow.





SLOW WEAPONS USE A SPEED FACTOR OF 6.

Simple melee weapons like the morningstar.

Simple ranged weapons like the sling.

Martial melee weapons like the featheraxe, glaive, greataxe, greatclub, greatsword, great kukri, halberd, heavy pick, lance, light lance, anseur, scythe, trident.

Martial ranged weapons like the composite longbow.

Exotic melee weapons like the bladed chain, dire flail, dwarven urgrosh, orc double axe, and two-bladed sword.

Exotic ranged weapons like the blowgun, bola, net, and repeating crossbow.







So, let's say our 6th level Soldier picks up a dagger. This is a quick weapon with SF 4. That means he doesn't get another attack, but he does get a better modifier on the second strike. Instead of +6/+1, the character is +6/+2. with the dagger.

When the soldier earns three more levels, reaching 9th, he does become skilled enough with the dagger to pick up another attack. Instead of +9/+4, the character is +9/+5/+1.

Using these rules, the lower levels are still balanced (the dagger weilder won't out-fight the two-handed swordsman), and a player can grow his character into becoming a certain type of weapon master. With 9th level bonuses, that extra attack with a dagger isn't a bad option at all, even if you are fighting a foe using a greatsword.

Of course, the Speed Factor rule works both ways. Bigger, bulkier weapons will hit less often. A 9th level Soldier using a Slow weapon like a greatsword will use these attack bonuses: +9/+3. The foe using the broadsword has a slight advantage on hitting, using +9/+4, but the dagger user will be +9/+5/+1 against our greatsword wielder.





All-in-all, this looks like a balanced, well written rule. I'll be adding this to my Spicy Conan Combat Rules.

You can add more granularity to the system by making more than 3 speed factor classes. If you do, please post your work here--I may want to copy it!

 

[Herzog]

Just to clarify: you still gain your first additional attack at BaB +6? (instead of, for quick weapons, at BaB +5) Why?

But you gain the additional attack earlier?
So quick gets additional attacks at BaB +6,+9,+13, etc. instead of +6,+11,+17.

And slow weapons get the additional attacks later?
So at +6 (with a +0 on the additional attack), +13, +19.


I must say the idea is interesting, although I would start out by NOT penalizing the 'slow' weapons, to avoid penalizing the martial classes. so:
slow weapons stay at +5
standard weapons get +4
quick weapons get +3

Although that might give out too much of a boost to quick weapons....

As an alternative, you could either let quick weapons make more attacks while keeping the attack bonus the same
(so extra attack at +6, +9, but at +9 your attacks are at +9/+4/-1)
or let the quick weapon have the same attack progression with lower reductions (NB: using your -4):
(so extra attacks at +9,+11, but at +11 your attacks are at +11/+7/+3)
or even let the player decide each full attack which one to use? (higher attack bonus or extra attacks?)

As a side note, spells with wich you can make more than one attack by using your BaB should be considered SLOW weapons! (because, you know, it's magic.)

This to avoid giving this boost to a set of classes that don't really need it....

 

[Water Bob]

Just to clarify: you still gain your first additional attack at BaB +6? (instead of, for quick weapons, at BaB +5) Why?

The Speed Factor doesn't kick in until the character is allowed two or more attacks per round. This usually happens at 6th level.

The standard SF, according to the rule is SF 5. This means, on your second attack, you subtract 5 from your class to-hit bonus.

A 6th level Fighter's BAB is +6/+1, right? The rule is saying the second attack at +1 is coming after applying the -5 for Speed Factor.

Thus, if the same fighter used a dagger, which is a Quick weapon, the SF would be 4. The 6th's level Fighter's BAB becomes +6/+2 with that weapon.

If that fighter switches to a two-handed sword, which is a Slow weapon, his BAB becomes +6 (only 1 attack--he'd get two attacks at 7th level, and it woud be at +7/+1).



Let's look at a 9th level fighter.

+9/+5/+1 = 3 attacks with a Quick weapon, like a dagger.

+9/+4 = 2 attacks with a Standard weapon, like a longsword. This is exactly like the rule used in the game.

+9/+3 = 2 attacks with a Slow weapon, like a two-handed sword.

And slow weapons get the additional attacks later?
So at +6 (with a +0 on the additional attack), +13, +19.

You have to have a +1 to get an extra attack. +0 does not indicate an extra attack.

I must say the idea is interesting, although I would start out by NOT penalizing the 'slow' weapons....

Remember, the rule is not used until the character gets a second attack. BAB must be at +5 or higher.

Thus, a 5th level fighter would be BAB +5/+1 with a dagger. BAB +5 with a longsword (as he is with the official rule). BAB +5 a two-handed sword (as he is with the offcial rule).

The SF penalty is never applied to the first attack--only the susequent attacks, if there are any.

 

[nonsi256]

Let's look at a 9th level fighter.

+9/+5/+1 = 3 attacks with a Quick weapon, like a dagger.

+9/+4 = 2 attacks with a Standard weapon, like a longsword. This is exactly like the rule used in the game.

+9/+3 = 2 attacks with a Slow weapon, like a two-handed sword.

. . .

You have to have a +1 to get an extra attack. +0 does not indicate an extra attack.

That's how I implemented weapon speed, but since characters ARE entitled to an attack even when their BAB is +0, I found it ok to allow +0 iterative attacks.

 

[Water Bob]

That's how I implemented weapon speed, but since characters ARE entitled to an attack even when their BAB is +0, I found it ok to allow +0 iterative attacks.

Not sure I follow. Looking at that charts in the 3.5 PHB, extra attacks always start with a +1, not a +0.

Thus, 6th level: +6/+1 (not +6/+0).

11th level: +11/+6/+1 (not +11/+6/+0)

16th level: +16/+11/+6/+1 (not +16/+11/+6/+0)

Where were you seeing the BAB +0 attacks?

 

[Thorindale]

Overall, looks like a slimmed-down version of delay/interative attacks in the Everquest d20.

BTW, what Scarred Lands supplement did you see this in?

 

[Water Bob]

BTW, what Scarred Lands supplement did you see this in?

Players Guide to Fighters and Barbarians.

 

[RainOfSteel]

This version of Weapon Speed sounds interesting. I've saved it away for future consideration.

Thanks.

 

[xigbar]

I think the idea makes a lot of sense. As a variant to the variant, I think Strength should play a factor somehow. After all, just because you're wielding a greatsword, and it's already a slow weapon, I'd like to see someone with average Strength swing that thing around.

 

[kitcik]

Good news: it helps monks.

Bad news: it nerfs some of the fighter's (et al) best weapons.

Now you need casting times (although I guess in Conan this makes less difference).