Weapons and Implements work the same

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Based on my post in this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...e-who-like-d-d-4th-edition-4.html#post4991274
and specifically on cmbaronas list.

We had this idea before in House Rules. How about having Implements and Weapons always work according to the same mechanic to determine damage and and attack bonus.

If you are proficient with a weapon, you get a bonus to attack and damage. The damage bonus applies to each damage die listed in the power.
The [W] notation now is effectively replaced with a d4.

Examples:
Clubb: +2 attack bonus, +1 damage bonus
Dagger: +3 attack bonus
Longsword: +3 attack bonus, +2 damage bonus
Greatsword: +3 attack bonus, +3 damage bonus

The difficulty is actually adding these properties to existing implements, the weapon process is relatively straightforward.
I suppose one will have to improve the overall effectiveness of implements to keep the balance.

Ki Focus, Orb, Wand: +1 attack bonus
Holy Symbol, Staff, Totem: +1 damage bonus

Or one could consider these in different "proficiency groups".
Simple Implements are holy symbols, staffs and totems
Advanced Implements are Wands and Orbs.

Ultimately I think that the system doesn't work good enough for my taste within the existing power framework - some stuff will lead to strange results. For example, Magic Missile will now often become more damaging than Eldritch Blast, which is clearly not desired! Defenses don't work with this assumption in mind, either.

But I think this is the approach I will take when I go back to my d20 Modern 2.0 homebrew system.

 

[Alex319]

Well, one thing it does is make critical hits a lot less valuable...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Sure, it would make critical hits a lot less valuable IF you leave them unaltered. Once you do this big a surgery on the system though there's no point in stopping halfway...

You'll want to do something different with crits, though that's really fairly simple. OTOH you could just leave them weaker, which tones down things like Daggermaster PP which frankly are a bit on the nasty side right now. Remember, weapon and implement properties will also contribute back into crits, so in the long run they really probably aren't nerfed all that much.

Multi-W attack powers may suffer some significant degradation, but then again maybe not depending on what the damage pluses are for various weapons.

Lots of feats would need to be reworked slightly or just eliminated and merged with other ones. In essence this is a lot of whole point, but it still needs doing.

In any case it probably would serve as a good basis for doing a total rewrite, but this ship has obviously sailed when it comes to 4e unless you like running really majorly house ruled stuff. Interesting thoughts though.

 

[Alex319]

Multi-W attack powers may suffer some significant degradation, but then again maybe not depending on what the damage pluses are for various weapons.

The weapon damage bonuses are multiplied in the case of multi-W powers:

The damage bonus applies to each damage die listed in the power.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't see a problem in that area.
I think some of the most power from critical hits come from the extra dice you get to roll. I notice that particularly when I run monsters - critical hits aren't really that impressive if you just get max base damage.

 

[Saeviomagy]

You could always approach things from the other end: assume that the base implement die is d6 (so you can have less damaging but higher accuracy implements), and with that in mind give all the spells a [w] multiplier that is close to the average.

The only problem is that a d6 gives us fairly big [w] steps that don't necessarily line up with other die types.

Primarily any 1d10 power suddenly ends up as a 2[w] power. That said: warlocks are hardly going to break the game if their stock damage dealing power is doing 2d6+mods, given their competition.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Interestingly enough, if we compare eldritch blast to a weapon attack, it most closely resembles a basic attack with a longbow, but with a really crappy range. That is to say: it sucks for a striker at-will.

Maybe we should just make it into a good at-will in our conversion? Personally I'd say that instead of making a level 1 at-will with 2[w] damage, we'd be better served by making it 1[w] + extra stat. Following other classes' design, that extra stat would be int.

 

[Narkaious]

Or since the Warlock is what it is maybe Eldritch Blast could have a rider depending on the pact you chose.

Infernal: At the start of your next turn, the target takes you Con. mod damage and is cursed.

Star: At the start of the target's next turn, the must make a save or be dazed until the end of the turn.

Most likely unbalanced but the idea is sound.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Or since the Warlock is what it is maybe Eldritch Blast could have a rider depending on the pact you chose.

Infernal: At the start of your next turn, the target takes you Con. mod damage and is cursed.

Star: At the start of the target's next turn, the must make a save or be dazed until the end of the turn.

Most likely unbalanced but the idea is sound.

The thing is that the eldritch blast is supposed to be the raw damage power for the warlock. They already have niche pact-specific at-wills.