Weapons, how different is different enough?

[Dogbrain]

Here is something to ponder:

In the real world, the antiquarian categories of weapons are actually centroids of very fuzzy domains. For example, the line between "short and stout rapier" and "long and gracile sword" very often depends entirely upon who draws it. In the real world, this actually doesn't make that much difference, since it is the combination of wielder and weapon that make the difference. Somebody doesn't pull out the measuring tape and go "Oops, that's 1/2 inch too long, I can't use it, since I don't know how to use Martial Weapons".

But in a game, you have to draw some lines, somewhere. The question is where those lines ought to be drawn.

At what point do two weapons that are not greatly dissimilar become dissimilar enough to "rate" different game attributes?

 

[the Jester]

This is really a dm call. I'd say that the key (for me) is:

-Is this different enough to be worth the effort to differntiate from other similar weapons?

See the 'broadsword' thread for an example of something that I don't think is worth it- the payoff just ain't too hot for the amount of work it'd take to balance the broadsword against the longsword.

 

[Spatzimaus]

You're right, it's a problem. Not just for the proficiency itself; what about Weapon Focus? Is a longsword so different from a scimitar that practice with one doesn't help the other? Why doesn't someone with Weapon Focus in Light Hammer get the bonus when using the blunt end of a Gnome Hooked Hammer? Certain weapons SHOULD be grouped together.

Then, there's the whole Exotic Weapon thing: why is it that if player A can use a light crossbow and player B can't, they both have the same nonproficiency penalty with a Repeating Crossbow? Someone proficient with various knives and swords should be able to use a Kukri fairly well; they won't get full use out of it, but better than someone who has no weapon skills at all.

The 3E weapon system is nice in a lot of ways, but it also really penalizes DMs who want to introduce a new weapon type. The Thri-Kreen sword thingy is pretty close to the two-bladed sword in most ways, but by the rules it'd require a separate Feat to use. In reality (yeah, I see the irony), someone proficient in one should be able to use the other. Likewise, while there's a knack to using double weapons, it's the same knack for all of them; if I want to add a Double Scimitar, anyone proficient with Scimitars and any double weapons should be able to use it.

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Personally, I'd go back to something like the AD&D style of weapon classes, and split by weapon size. So, "Medium Swords" and "Small Swords" would be the way it's divided. You need the size differentiation to separate 1-handed, 2-handed, and really tiny weapons; they're wielded differently.

We've already done it this way IMC. In fact, we narrowed it down further into 8 categories (Bladed/Hafted/Blunt/Piercing/Projectile/Thrown/Unarmed/Ray). Each class picks 0-2 of these at the start, and most get to add more as they level up. When you take Weapon Focus/Specialization/Improved Critical/etc, they apply to one size of one category (Medium Bladed, for instance).
Then we just said that everyone can use all light weapons (replaces the Simple proficiency).
All Exotic weapons fall into one (or more) of the Martial categories in addition to their EWP. A two-bladed sword, for instance is wielded as a Medium Bladed weapon, but has EWP(Double Weapon) attached. Anyone without that EWP can't use it as a double weapon, anyone with the Feat can use any double weapon fully.

It's worked really well, so far. I should probably write up a more detailed version.

 

[Spyritwind]

Interesting, I have thought of going to a weapon group system as well since such things as weapon focus and exotic weapon seem too narrow. What is the difference between blunt and hafted? I assume hafted could be an axe or pick, but isn't a mace just a different shaped piece of metal on the end of a stick as well, or is blunt just clubs, cudgels and such?

 

[Khaalis]

Personally I love the idea of weapon grouping, and 3.X went in the right direction with granting proficiencies in groups, though sometimes I feel that these groups are TOO broad.

The question to ask here is - How would you break weapons into groups? What is similar vs. dissimilar?

Swords would seem an obvious category, but alas it is not. One-handed and two-handed swords are wielded quite differently. Within one-handed swords, a longsword is wielded vastly differently than shortsword or a rapier or a scimitar.
Longswords are generally wielded in a series of straight slashing maneuvers.
Shortswords lend to short stabbing thrust maneuvers.
Rapiers are best used in a fencing style - parry/reposte/thrust.
Scimitars are wielded in arcing figure 8 slashing maneuvers.

Overall, to simplify things, you could say that all One-Handed Thrusting and all One-Handed Slashing swords form 2 groups.

What about Bludgeoning weapons? What is the real difference between a simple and a martial bludgeoning weapon? The basic premise is very much the same, haul back, wing with all your might and hit with any available surface of the weapon on the desired body part of the foe. Simple. So why is a club and mace simple, but a warhammer martial?

If anyone really wants to get into tackling this topic, I would more than happy to participate and see what we can come up with.

 

[Khaalis]

Anyone actually interested in this project?

 

[Aaron2]

I an tentatively splitting weapons (for purposes of Weapon Focus/Specialization) into ...

Swords, Mass Weapons (Axes, hammers, and picks), pole-arms, spears, fencing (includes rapiers and daggers plus a few other new finessable weapons), bows, crossbows, and firearms.


Aaron

 

[Spatzimaus]

What is the difference between blunt and hafted?

Longer explanations of the 8 categories:

Bladed: Swords, duh. Almost always close-range slashing weapons.
Hafted: Axes, Picks, and most Polearms. At one point we called this the "Chopping" group.
Blunt: Maces, Staves, Clubs, chains, and Hammers. While in a lot of ways these are used like the Hafted weapons, they don't require as much aiming. Okay, it's a flimsy excuse, I needed a way to give certain classes (Cleric) access to heavy blunt weapons without having them be able to use axes and such. And, there IS a different amount of skill involved in using a club versus a tomahawk.
Piercing: Daggers and Spears, including a few stabbing Polearms. It'd be more accurate to call this group "Stabbing", since there are other types of piercing weapons. Note that if you throw these at someone, it uses the Thrown group below instead of this one; Weapon Focus (Tiny Piercing) helps you stab someone with a dagger, but it's an entirely different set of skills to throw them.
Projectile: Bows, Crossbows, and the occasional exotic weapon like blowguns. In a more modern campaign, this does NOT include firearms, those go in the Ray group since you don't need to lead the target so much.
Thrown: Shurikens, Darts, Nets, rocks, grenades. Also, any melee weapon that can also be thrown (daggers, spears, throwing axes) uses this proficiency group when you throw it.
Unarmed: Unarmed attacks, touch attack spells, the various gauntlets, natural weapons, weapons that mimic natural weapons like claws, or spells that bestow natural weapons (like the Psionic claw/bite powers). Since these are always light weapons, everyone is proficient with them, but it's still important to keep this group around for Weapon Focus/Specialization/etc.
Ray: Ranged touch attack spells and firearms (if any). All ray spells are treated as light weapons, so everyone is proficient with them.

Then, as I said before, within each group you break it up by weapon size. So, Weapon Focus in Medium Bladed (which helps out Longswords and Scimitars) wouldn't help with a Greatsword, since it's a Large Bladed weapon. It's just wielded entirely differently.
(Actually, when a person takes these Feats, they pick Light (one or more size smaller than them), Medium (same size), or Heavy (one size larger). That way, if they change size, it's still the appropriate fighting style.)
As a result, if you don't include Firearms, there are 20 groups of weapons each person could apply these Feats to (3 each for the first six groups, 1 each for the last two).

Now, I suppose you could shift Hafted and Blunt into Impact (mace/pick/axe) and Polearm (including staves). It was more of a personal preference thing here; I didn't want polearms to be such a distinct group that no one would ever take them, so by rolling them into the axe group it solved some headaches. Also, it keeps all the axe-like polearms like halberds and such in the same group; there aren't any blunt polearms, so it's not a problem.

 

[Darklone]

Has someone already read the UA rules for weapon grouping?

 

[Relic]

Here is what I use:

• Axes: bardiche, battle axe, dwarven axe (dwarves only), great axe, hand axe, hatchet, orc double axe (orc/half-orc only), throwing axe
• Hammers/Picks: gnome hooked hammer (gnomes only), great hammer, heavy pick, light hammer, light pick, sickle, warhammer
• Lances/Spears: half spear, harpoon, heavy lance, javelin, light lance, long spear, short spear
• Small Blades: bayonet, cutlass, darts, deer horn knife, kris knife, main gauche, punching dagger, rapier, saber, short sword, tamo dagger
• Medium Blades: bastard sword*, broad sword, butterfly sword, falchion, long sword, machete, sapara sword, scimitar
• Large Blades: flamberge, flax sword, great scimitar, two-handed sword
• Flails/Maces: aelis club, chain flail, club, great club, heavy flail, heavy mace, light flail, light mace, maul, morning star, spiked club, two-section staff
• Polearms: awl pike, bec de corbin, glaive, guisarme, halberd, iron staff, kwan dao (Asian halberd), hafted mace, naginata, nagimaki, partisan, ranseur, scythe, trident
• Bows: short bow, composite short bow, long bow, composite long bow.
• Crossbows: hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow
• Basic: dagger, club, kukri dagger, quarterstaff**, sap, sickle, sling, stiletto


Anything not listed is counted as an exotic weapon. Basic is a requirement for any class that receives weapon groups. Fighters receive 8 group proficiencies. Rangers, Paladins, Samurai, Sohei, Monks, and War Priests (clerics with the War domain) receive 6 group proficiencies. Barbarians, Psychic Warriors, Shugenja, and Clerics receive 5 group proficiencies. Wizards, Wu Jen, and Psions are proficient in Basic and Crossbow. Shamans are proficienct in three weapon groups. Sorcerers are proficient in Basic, and any two weapon group proficiencies of the player’s choice. Rogues are proficient in Small Blades, Basic, and Crossbow. Bards receive 4 group proficiencies. Druids remain unchanged. Weapons selected for the exotic weapon proficiency must meet with the DM’s approval. Additionally, an Exotic Weapon counts as three groups.

I also use a rule for bastard sword and similar weapons... anyone proficient in medium blades can use a bastard sword one-handed - they do not receive any Strength bonus to damage unless they take exotic weapon proficiency: bastard sword. The same thing applies to all the two-handed martial/one-handed exotic weapons such as the dwarven axe.