Well that didn't take long, wizard has been shelved.

[Nezlezar]

I suppose I am more of a power gamer when it comes to playstyle so it became apparent very quickly that the wizard has a minor role to fill, at best. I had a controller based wizard (heavy focus on the illusion powers) and there just isn't that much need for control. If you try to have the optimal group for balance, Wizards has made a role, the controller, it's own role. So it's safe to say that focusing on this role to the best of my ability would make sense. Was an orb wizard with good int/wisdom and lots of AOE focus. Now I don't have 20 levels under my belt so I can only speak on the early game, but that was enough to see that AOE 'control' was just not needed.

What do we have other than AOE? Well, the single target damage is awful compared to strikers (I suppose that is the idea) and the AOE is not really that important, as mentioned. Granted, having a pair of dragonborn in my party helps with minion clearing...but outside of minion clearing, the wizard doesn't bring much to the table.

Wizard rarely has to move around = boring
Power choice focuses on AOE = boring when monsters are spread around
Ability to bring that 'extra something' just isn't there = boring and I don't feel like I'm carrying my own weight

Some of the other wizard features aren't really wizard only features. Rituals, INT based skills etc. so it's just another thing that another class can do.

I certainly understand and welcome people disagreeing with me, it just seems that wizards are not what I would have liked them to be. Kinda like Wizards didn't want to have 3 strikers and tried to create a role for the wizard without really thinking it through.

Making a halfling rogue...25AC against opp attacks, yes please!

 

[Nezlezar]

I suppose my post counts as a rules discussion...curious how other people interpret the rules of the wizard versus my complaints about them.

 

[Victim]

Area attacks have seemed incredibly useful, especially in our groups that don't have them. Most of the enemies we've seen haven't been able to spread out much without interfering with their own ability to attack.

 

[James McMurray]

Wizard rarely has to move around = boring

My wizard has to constantly keep moving, because when you hit 3 guys at once, at least 3 guys want to kill you.

Power choice focuses on AOE = boring when monsters are spread around

If the monsters are spread around, you've done your job well. Monsters being spread out means your party can concentrate on one of them at a time.

Ability to bring that 'extra something' just isn't there = boring and I don't feel like I'm carrying my own weight

A wizard has lots of "extra something"s in terms of status conditions and terrain modification. It's not the sexy slam power of a striker, or the "in your face" action of a defender, but it's a thing of beauty when it comes together well.

I certainly understand and welcome people disagreeing with me, it just seems that wizards are not what I would have liked them to be. Kinda like Wizards didn't want to have 3 strikers and tried to create a role for the wizard without really thinking it through.

You mean they didn't want to have 4 strikers? They've got Rogues, Rangers, and Warlocks already. There's only one controller right now because they wanted to make another but already had divine and martial covered. Likely the druid will be the next controller, but focusing more on natural terrain modification and summoning.

Not trying to convince you to change your mind. Just pointing out my opinion.

 

[DLichen]

Wow, I always love playing as the wizard. It just feels nice to be able to roast 3 or 4 baddies at the same time anytime you want. Rogues and rangers do deal an absolutely monstrously large amount of single target damage, but our group would always be glad to have a wizard around to fry some minions and creature clumps.

*shrugs*

 

[darkadelphia]

Part of that is about encounter design as well--if your DM creates encounters that need controlling, you'll be useful. If not, then you won't.

Minion clearing is one of the tasks wizards excel at (those darned Dragonborn might steal your thunder, as you pointed out), but also, wizards are great for other control situations. If all the encounters your DM designs are about killing the monsters before they kill you, control won't be that great. If monsters are trying to move past the PCs or get away from the PCs, wizards can do a lot to put a lid on that.

For example, I ran an adventure recently where the PCs were attempting to clear out outlying buildings in a complex without the central command area being alerted. When a patrol came by and all the monsters attempted to flee and warn their leader, the wizard was able to throw ray of frost one way, burn an action point and throw sleep the other way and have the entire encounter pinned down except for the 5th monster who was being held by the fighter.

 

[Nifft]

I'm playing a boring, balanced Human Staff Wizard, just to get an idea of how the class handles its "baseline" configuration.

In tonight's combat-heavy game, my dude killed 6 of our 9 enemies.

Flaming Sphere is B•R•U•T•A•L. It shoots through schools of minions on a miss. It deals better ongoing-esque damage than any other effect, and they can't save against it. They can just move. It lasts forever. Oh, and I can also Thunderwave people into it, if they're not moving the way that I want them to move.

My AC is the same as the Fighter, though I'm not hefting a shield (yet). My other defenses are quite high, and twice per encounter I can boost any of them by +2 (Staff of Defense), or just AC & Reflex by +4 (Shield). When I hit Paragon and enter Wizard of the Spiral Tower, my AC is going to exceed that of the Paladin. My Reflex is as high as that of the Rogue, and will remain so. (Those are the most common defenses targeted, I think.)

In our last combat, everyone's dice were mis-behaving. My Wizard managed to shine by attacking multiple targets (so he eventually hit some), dealing guaranteed damage (Flaming Sphere), and being able to choose which defense to target (Fort vs. Reflex, and by Ioun's grace I want a Will attack).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Scarface6174]

Short and sweet reply here

+1 to Nifft.

 

[Nezlezar]

Some of the things here mentioned I would have to agree with. The DM having an encounter to control would certainly have made me feel more useful. The initial modules may be lacking this though. Dual dragonborn can AND will steal some minion clearing thunder so given our makeup...any sort of minion clearing merit goes out the window. I imagine if we didn't have other AOE capable classes, I would think twice about dropping the wizzy. So that is 2 reasons for dropping him that both are specific to my own situation...doesn't mean the wizard sucks for everyone.

Let's just hope I now don't start to run into situations where I go "Gee, wish we had a wizard here to manage this encounter."

 

[Nifft]

Dual dragonborn can AND will steal some minion clearing thunder so given our makeup...any sort of minion clearing merit goes out the window.

So: don't bother with minion-clearing. Drop Scorching Burst, and take Illusory Ambush instead. Take Ray of Enfeeblement instead of Burning Hands.

There's a lot of fun you can have making life hell for one ranged target.

Cheers, -- N