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WFRP 4th Edition - How the game has evolved.

So...while this thread has the WFRP fans gathered, I have a question. Does 4E (or even 2E/3E) have a different/official timeline/lore in terms of what happens to the Old World? I am speculating here but it seems that the "end of the world" lore was written because they were retiring the old Warhammer minis line to focus on WH40K.

Obviously a home game can do whatever it wants and doesn't have to follow anything "official" but it also feels like with the new content, the tales of the Old World's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

I am not well-versed in WFRP lore however so thought I'd ask the assembled brain trust here. :unsure:
 

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Tutara

Adventurer
I was introduced to WFRP 1e with Shadows over Bogenhafen back when I was in the Army and have carried a soft spot for the game (and that campaign in particular) ever since.

Our 5E game had to go on hiatus and I found myself running the 4E Enemy Within for the group shortly thereafter. Our sessions have been sporadic so they've only made it about 2/3 of the way through the first module but everyone is having fun as we try to wrap our heads around the rules. A few comments and suggestions for the game:

1. If you're planning to play online, Foundry has been fantastic. The officially supported module content works great. I went in as a complete noob running an online game and while I still struggle, I've found it easier to pick up than some of the other VTTs.

2. This blogger, Gideon, has some great thoughts around enhancing the game. I borrowed a few of them (chiefly the runaway teen whose dark visions have been drawing her to Bogenhafen.)

The one bummer is the player whose character resembles Kastor Lieberung had to leave the game so I'm slow-walking any plot developments on that arc until I figure out what to do.

All that said, I have no doubt you'll have a blast!
Shadows (well, Mistaken Identity) was my starting adventure too. I've read Gideon's stuff - good to see that it works in practice as well. From memory/my reading the big issue is keeping the party invested once things start to move from one section of the campaign to the next.

I definitely remember wanting to spend more time as a trader on the Reik than doing any sort of adventuring. Selling fish was a good steady trade, and less chance of getting decapitated by a random goblin. If I end up running Fishing Tycoon, though, so be it!
 

TheSword

Legend
So...while this thread has the WFRP fans gathered, I have a question. Does 4E (or even 2E/3E) have a different/official timeline/lore in terms of what happens to the Old World? I am speculating here but it seems that the "end of the world" lore was written because they were retiring the old Warhammer minis line to focus on WH40K.

Obviously a home game can do whatever it wants and doesn't have to follow anything "official" but it also feels like with the new content, the tales of the Old World's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

I am not well-versed in WFRP lore however so thought I'd ask the assembled brain trust here. :unsure:
The End Times event which really begins in the Empire in 2522/23 and is pretty cataclysmic by 2525 and so the Enemy Within Campaign (and the Ubersreik Adventures books) are set in and around 2512 and there is a good 10 years from this point before the apocalypse happens.

There were also a lot of other inconsistencies between 1e WFRP (which borrowed a lot from early D&D) and later editions which cued more from Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

  • Why is Karl Franz seen as a weak ruler in Enemy Within and a lot of the novels of the time (Beasts in Velvet etc) but is a hammer wielding champion in later years.
  • Why are their structural differences in the Empire - several elector states exist in 2nd Edition that don’t exist in 1st Nordland, and cities like Nuln and Middenheim have different areas of control.
  • Why do empire wizards in 1e look like D&D wizards but 2e look have braziers on their back and flaming hair.
  • Why is the Grand Theogonist in 1e an old man but in 2e onwards a War Wagon riding champion.
Etc etc. The Enemy Within basically bridges the gap between the editions to move the Empire to a place where WFRP resembles the empire in style and structure used in WFB. The Enemy Within campaign provides the justification for the structural differences and the changes in behavior for folks like Karl Franz while the rules explain how a wizard can start looking normal but be changed by the winds of Magic and wear some prett my strange paraphernalia to help attract those winds.

Just to put it in context this is about 7 years after the main events in Drachenfels and about 4 years after Beasts in Velvet.

The events of the Storm of Chaos - the chaos incursion described in the Felix and Gotrek books and referenced in Paths of Damned for 2nd edition happens in 2521 so a few years before The End Times or rather it forms a prelude to it.

Essentially all these timelines are compatible for the most part and 4e bridges the gap between the previous editions. The challenge would be if you want to carry on the world past 2523. You’re on your own after that point but there’s plenty of adventure in the gaps.
 

GuyBoy

Hero
As a (very fortunate) player in @TheSword ’s Enemy Within campaign, I’d testify just how evocative and effective the 4E system is.
I love the whole Old World feel and the ruleset seems to allow you to smell the sewers you explore, feel the cracks of your leather jerkin, taste the sour beer in the taverns and feel your throat engorge with vomit at the sight of what beastmen have done to an unlucky riverboat. And don’t even get me started on what Castle Wittgenstein is like!
We play online, using Roll 20 and Discord, and that does take out some of the mathematical challenges, but it is certainly an elegant system. I also love D&D 5e and Level Up as well but change is certainly positive.
I hope this thread helps others enjoy the Old World at its best (or worst, maybe)
 

TheSword

Legend
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The Archives of the Empire book 1 to 3 are collections of articles which cover various topics. They have a good mix of crunch and fluff and several explore quite substantial sections of deep dives.

Book one is really a deep dive into the idea of races in the Empire. Not by making wide assumptions about Dwarves or halflings but by focusing on one area or society of that race and adding some crunch and descriptions of the power structure so around that.

Section One covers the humans of the empire with a section on each Electoral Province. Each section has some demographic information, and overview of the land, and overview of the people and then a specific location in that province in more details with plot hooks.

Section Two and Three covers halflings and more specifically the Moot. These sections have lots of NPC stat blocks, adventure books, and detailed descriptions of places, power structures and interesting locations.

Section Four and Five covers Imperial Dwarfs and the Dwarf hold of Karak Azgaraz in detail. While Section Six covers the Eonir elves of the Laurelorn forest.

The crunch is lighter in AofteE 1 than most of the books but it is still there. There are four careers an Elven Ghoststrider, a Dwarf Ranger, a Halfling Fieldwarden and most ludicrous of all a Halfling Badger Rider!

There are also lots of weapons specific to races with special elven arrows and swords, Dwarves firearms, ammo and the slayer axe. Even Nan’s Cleaver and the Iron Skillet for halflings.
 

Tutara

Adventurer
@TheSword

Advantage does seem one of the more fiddly aspects of 4e (although I appreciate the idea behind it). Does the group advantage option streamline this? We use a similar system in our 5e game, and I wonder if it might make the system easier to broach for people who haven’t used it before?
 

TheSword

Legend
@TheSword

Advantage does seem one of the more fiddly aspects of 4e (although I appreciate the idea behind it). Does the group advantage option streamline this? We use a similar system in our 5e game, and I wonder if it might make the system easier to broach for people who haven’t used it before?
The difference between tracking advantage per side rather than per creature is all the difference in the world.

Firstly because it’s a team shared resource the players keep reminding each other where it should be at. As long as one player has their eye on the ball then it’s easy to track. We use a token on Roll20 which all players can adjust - one just keeps it updated. In face to face you could use cards or chips to record.

Secondly because group advantage only matters when it is spent and not on every single roll it doesn’t have such a pervasive impact on the game. It’s useful and tactical but not overwhelming. A lot of the earlier criticism was that it built too much and made the game too swingy.

Group advantage is something you definitely want - who doesn’t want an extra action! It the biggest improvement they made to the game.
 

TheSword

Legend
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Archives of the Empire 2 has a lot more crunch than the previous installment but it is still collated in the forms of articles.

The first two parts deal with ogres. Firstly their lifestyle, behaviors and societies and some of the ways they interact with the empire. Then now to run ogres as characters, with ogre careers rules for playing an ogre, weapons, new talents and sample stat blocks. There are also a range of Ogre Spells, ogre equipment and weapons and even animals that ogres use as mounts. It’s a bolt section and no doubt very popular with players.

Part Three details astrology in the Empire. Not just the basics but how to use star signs to modify starting characters.

Part four has full rules for crafting magic items, weapons and armour… and I mean full rules for both the DM but players as well. With lots of options, tables and rules for making items unique.

Part Five is a detailed look at the Great Hospice, an asylum ran by Shalyan priests. Every location is detailed with maps and NpCs along with lots and lots of Hooks. It also has an appendix of psychological disorders that might affect PCs.

Part Five is a breakdown of War in WFRP. Using PCs as part of wider conflicts and battles. Rules for mass combat and war machines and how the environment or battlefield might change things.

All in all some pretty specific topics which will either be really useful or can be totally ignored. The section on magic items is pretty priceless though.
 

TheSword

Legend
A0C7F287-BCC7-4B76-A872-D8A190190379.jpeg


Archives of the Empire 3 is again full of interesting articles and ideas to expand the rules. It definitely feels like there is more crunch in this book than vol 1 and 2.

Section one contains rules and background for running your own business. Suggestions include Courier Service, Crafting Workshop, Criminal Gang, Holy Temple, Knightly Order, Tavern, Market Parlour, Noble Estate, Performing Troupe and Publishing House. Each suggestion has descriptions, linked careers and skills, special rules and 3 events that might happen to the business. It also has details of sample creditors, random events, expansion opportunities and 3 sample shops.

Section Two is all about armour, with % chances of looted armour fitting.

Armour now imposes a flat -10 to stealth tests.

There are new rules for repairing armour. Including when skilled players want to repair the party’s.

There are new qualities for armour and flaws.

Importantly what armours can be combined has been updated with these rules. Previous plate could go over leather or chain and chain could go over leather. Which meant a plate armoured, chain armoured, leather armoured warrior could have a might 6 AP making them very hard to hit.

The new rules are that a soft kit or reinforced soft kit (1AP) can go under any armour.

Boiled leather can go under a breastplate (3AP body only) or Brigandine (2 AP on the body and arms) but nothing else.

Chainmail can go under Brigandine or a Breastplate but nothing else.

Plate armour can no longer go over other armour (apart from the breastplate)

The effect of this is that the body can now be most protected but the arms less so and the legs and head even less. I really like these changes. It’s relatively easy to still get 3 AP on every location but limits this becoming excessive.

The chapter finished off with a range of helmets with their own rules and styles.

Chapter 3 has special rules for the cult of Handrich (God of Merchants) including lots of background, a speciality priest career and specific miracles for Handrich.

Chapter 4 covers the minor gods Khaine, Solkan, and the Hedge Wizards of the old faith. There is again a great deal of fluff and lore as wells as speciality priests of Solkan and Khaine. Specific Miracles and a nice big chunk of Hedge Magic Spells which are very flavourful such as Myrkride, Silver Tide and The Ousting.

Chapter 5 covers the Cult of Rhya and you guessed it comes with speciality priests, lore and miracles… you’re detecting a theme now. It’s followed by a Chapter on animal familiars which fits several of these cults very well.

Chapter 7 is different as it is just two pages of adaptions to the racially character generation that let you play characters from different ends of Altdorf including a version for Imperial Dwarfs.

Chapter 8 has the brilliant new Channelling rules I mentioned previously. I can’t stress how much fun these are. I gave examples of the Bright wind’s options but every wind has some. The lore of Shadow for instance let’s you improve your stealth with Ulgu’s Touch; appear less of a threat with Not My Problem; or gain freedom of movement with Passing Shadow. To be clear these aren’t spells, they’re little quirks you pick up as you learn spells that you can use as part of channelling using a little of the channeled energy (which no longer disappears when you use some of it). These are just brilliant.

The final Chapter finishes the book with Lord Adelbert a retired Reiksguard knight with the new Easily Confused trait. This is in keeping with Cubicle 7’s amazing character building and the quality of their NPCs.

There’s a lot in Archives of the Empire 3. Definitely worth a look.
 

BigZebra

Adventurer
What an awesome thread @TheSword!
I have considered DMing this for my group so many times.
We normally play 5e/4e or PF, and while my group aren't quite 3.5-min/max-players I do fear WFRP 4e isn't up their alley character option wise. But this really makes me wanna try it out.
 

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