D&D 3E/3.5 What all does Animal Growth change? Will 3.5 allow for Really Big druids?

[Nareau]

The SRD lists several effects of animal growth (most of them dealing with the size increase). Does it have any other effects? In the MM, it has a chart for all the things that should change...including improved natural armor, dex penalty, etc. (things that aren't mentioned by the spell).

{Edit: In 3.5, druids will assume the type of the creature they wildshape into.}

I'm asking this because I'm a little nervous about druids being able to cast the spell on themselves when they wildshape. At 9th level, it looks like a druid will be able to become Huge pretty easily, and Gargantuan with the help of an Enlarge spell.

I fear the 9th level druid, 18HD gargantuan ape with 20' natural reach, Strength of 31, 2 claws/1bite at +18/+13, Damage of 2d6+10/2d6+5, +10 base Natural Armor (throw in Barkskin for another +4).

I fear him even more when he picks up Exotic Weapon Prof: Gargantuan Spiked Chain, and his Wizard friend learns Shrink Item.

I assume I'm doing something horribly wrong in this analysis. If someone could pick it apart, and assure me that this will never happen, I would be very appreciative. I'm thinking that even if I've made some mistakes, this will still be a pretty powerful tactic to consider.

Spider

Animal Growth
Transmutation
Level: Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to one animal/two levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
A number of animals grow to twice their normal size. This doubles each animal's height, length, and width, increasing its weight by a factor of eight. This increase in size has a number of effects:
Hit Dice: The creature's HD double, doubling the creature's base attack bonus and increasing its saves accordingly.
Size: The creature's size increases one step. This increase reduces its AC (according to the new size), reduces its attack bonus (according to the new size), affects its ability to grapple, and so on. The creature gains an enlargement bonus to Strength and Constitution scores, and its damage with natural attacks increases. This spell does not affect Colossal creatures.
When the spell ends, the creature's hit points return to normal, and all damage the creature has taken while enlarged is divided by 2.
The spell gives the character no special means of command or influence over the enlarged animals.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

A druid that wildshapes doesn't become an animal. His type doesn't change, he's still a humanoid.

Maitre D

 

[Nareau]

Sorry, I should have been clearer:
Andy Collins states that in 3.5, their type *will* change. I'll add a link to this as soon as I find it.

Spider

Edit: Aha! Here we go:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=45270&perpage=30&pagenumber=37
(easiest way to find it is to search on the time/date stamp)

Posted by WotC_Andy on 07-03-03 07:09 PM:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lago AM3P
Also:

How does animal growth interact with a animal-shapechanged druid? What happens to a wildshaped druid who shapechanges into something else, or vice versa?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A druid who wild shapes is treated as a member of the new creature type.
__________________
Andy Collins
Senior Designer
Wizards of the Coast RPG R&D

 

[Liolel]

Not sure about the animal growth part but the 3.0 druid looses all their powers for 24 hours when the use a weapon from outside their normal list which includes wildshape so you don't have to worry about the spiked chain.

 

[youspoonybard]

Animal growth now, IIRC, just gives you one size increase.

It's a good spell, but not ludicrous like it was before.

 

[Sejs]

3.5 Animal Growth has been revised - it no longer doubles the HD of the target creature. It's a flat Size and HD increase.

Animal Growth does indeed give one size increase, from Initial Size to Initial Size +1

3.5 Wild Shape does apparently change the druid's type

Druids no longer lose their abilities when using a non-druid weapon, they just arn't automatically proficient with weapons that arn't on the list. They -do- continue to lose their abilities if they wear prohibited armor, however.

 

[Nareau]

Thanks, Sejs!

Do you know anything about how size increases are going to be treated? Specifically, I want to see if size increases are going to bestow lesser benefits than they did before. I heard that Enlarge increases your size, but only gives you a +2 Size increase to Str.

Also, I'm curious to see if there's anything to prevent a character from receiving multiple size-increasing effects from varying sources.

Does the increase in HD on a Wildshaped druid have "trickle-down" effects (increase skills, HP, feats, BAB, etc.)?

Something else just occured to me: King Kong here could have picked up Exotic Weapon Prof: Colossal Spiked Chain. That -2 to hit (for it being too large) will probably be easily offset by the increase in damage.

Yeesh.

Spider

 

[Saeviomagy]

Where's the actual quote which says that a wildshaped druid changes type?

Lago's question is rather stupid, becuase it uses a term - "shapechange" - which has a specific meaning in 3E. It's entirely possible to read his questions as:

"What happens to a druid who uses the spell shapechange to turn into an animal?"

and

"What happens to a druid who wildshapes and then uses the spell shapechange to turn into an animal?"

Which under 3E would give the exact response he got.

I've not seen anything anywhere else to actually clarify this.

 

[kallisti_dk]

Got my 3.5 PHB in front of me now.

Let's see. There's no mention of changing type in the description of wildshape, but wildshape is like the Polymorph spell with certain druid exceptions, so I'll take a look at the Polymorph spell.

And it says "The Subject's creature type and subtype (if any) changes to match the new form [...].

Let's see... Druid with the Natural Spell feat (3.5 core), "wildshapes" into a dire bear and casts Animal Growth on self. Carnage Ensues.

I like it.

BTW, Animal growth increases the size category of the target by one, gives a +8 size bonus to strength, a +4 size bonus to con, a -2 size penalty to dex, existing natural armor bonus increases by 2. It also changes the targets modifier to AC and Attack due to size. It changes the base damage of the targets attacks, eg. elephants gore 2d8 -> 3d8 (according to table 2.2 in DMG). Space and Reach is increased. Speed does not change. The spell grants damage reduction 10/magic and +4 resistance bonus to saving throws. Equipment worn by the subject is also enlarged, but reverts if removed from the target.

Brutal.

 

[Nareau]

OK. Thanks for the clarification.

Are there any limits on what kinds of animals druids can wildshape into?

Can you list the benefits that an Enlarge spell can bestow?

Do you see anything that prevents size-changing effects from stacking?

What's the duration of Animal Growth now?

I thought I was onto something here...but now that I see that polymorph changes your type and subtype, I'm sure someone else can come up with even BETTER cheese than I have.

Spider